Live ball appeal - missed home plate

[outathm]

I was right there next to you Steve, however, this weekend I used the Rule properly and no one said a word. Run scored.

The rule is only as good as the coach' knowledge of the same.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by outathm

...The rule is only as good as the coach' knowledge of the same.

If that's the case, then the rules suck!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by outathm

I was right there next to you Steve, however, this weekend I used the Rule properly and no one said a word. Run scored.

The rule is only as good as the coach' knowledge of the same.

I guess it should be noted that in some levels umpires will use the term "no tag" when the ball beats a runner at a base (including home), but the tag is missed. However, usually that is followed by a safe signal and call.

Though better coaching of the catcher should resolve any issue of confusion, I can see where the two could be confused.

Come to think of it, on a miss-n-miss play, if the umpire is going to declare "no tag", why is s/he not also declaring "no touch" to equalize any perceived benefit the defense may contrive by the prescribed declaration?

[Tru_in_Blu]

In a SP Rec league last evening. League bylaws state that over the fence home runs must be run out.

Bases loaded, batter clears them with a grand slam. Batter allegedly missed HP, and the PU apparently wasn't looking [shame on him]. So an appeal was made and the PU ruled safe.

My question is about the timing of when an appeal can be made. I realize a runner cannot go back to touch HP if a subsequent runner has scored. So let's focus on the batter. Since the ball is over the fence, we have a dead ball situation. Say in his exeuberance, the batter runs past HP and doesn't touch it. How soon can the defense appeal the missed plate? The BR may realize he missed the plate and goes back to touch it two seconds after, or he's half-way to the dugout and his teammates tell him to return to touch.

I'm assuming this isn't like an appeal at 1B when the BR overruns the base without touching it. Do we wait until a ball is given to the pitcher at which point the defense can appeal?

Logically, I'm thinking when the BR enters the dugout area OR when the pitcher has a replacement ball. [And some umps give the pitcher another ball while the BR is rounding the bases. I wait until the BR has completed his tour.]

Thanx.

[CecilOne]

Do we need a ball in play for a dead ball appeal?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Do we need a ball in play for a dead ball appeal?

That's not the point.

How soon can the defense appeal the missed plate?

It's somewhere between immediately and before the next pitch [legal or illegal]. Where on that timeline do you straddle?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

In a SP Rec league last evening. League bylaws state that over the fence home runs must be run out.

Bases loaded, batter clears them with a grand slam. Batter allegedly missed HP, and the PU apparently wasn't looking [shame on him]. So an appeal was made and the PU ruled safe.

My question is about the timing of when an appeal can be made. I realize a runner cannot go back to touch HP if a subsequent runner has scored. So let's focus on the batter. Since the ball is over the fence, we have a dead ball situation. Say in his exeuberance, the batter runs past HP and doesn't touch it. How soon can the defense appeal the missed plate? The BR may realize he missed the plate and goes back to touch it two seconds after, or he's half-way to the dugout and his teammates tell him to return to touch.

I'm assuming this isn't like an appeal at 1B when the BR overruns the base without touching it. Do we wait until a ball is given to the pitcher at which point the defense can appeal?

Logically, I'm thinking when the BR enters the dugout area OR when the pitcher has a replacement ball. [And some umps give the pitcher another ball while the BR is rounding the bases. I wait until the BR has completed his tour.]

Thanx.

If the catcher is smart, the catcher will wait until the last runner leaves the field of play.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If the catcher is smart, the catcher will wait until the last runner leaves the field of play.

OK that gets me a bit closer to a real answer. Is this an implied answer? Does that mean that if the catcher declares an attempt to appeal and the BR hears that, the BR is within his/her right to go over and touch HP without being called out?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

OK that gets me a bit closer to a real answer. Is this an implied answer? Does that mean that if the catcher declares an attempt to appeal and the BR hears that, the BR is within his/her right to go over and touch HP without being called out?

Come on, I know you have a rule book.

RS#1.D.1

[AtlUmpSteve]

Proper mechanic I have been taught is that you do not give the offense (pitcher if she is looking, catcher if the pitcher is not) a replacement ball after a home run until all offensive players have completed whatever advances they intend. Your giving the defense a ball implies they can NOW initiate an appeal.

If a base is missed, you look to see if the offense attempts to return; if the missed base is home, you wait until either 1) a following runner has touched, or 2) the runner that missed enters dead ball territory, before you give the defense a ball. I was taught that mechanic after the USA team missed home after home run in Olympic play, and the (foreign) umpire honored the appeal earlier than it should have been (USA player missed home, but made no attempt to return, best as I recall).

If you put a ball back into play, you should honor an appeal. So don't give it to the defense until the offense is done running bases. Just like allowing awarded bases to be touched after a ball is thrown out of play before awarding bases.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Proper mechanic I have been taught is that you do not give the offense (pitcher if she is looking, catcher if the pitcher is not) a replacement ball after a home run until all offensive players have completed whatever advances they intend. Your giving the defense a ball implies they can NOW initiate an appeal.

If a base is missed, you look to see if the offense attempts to return; if the missed base is home, you wait until either 1) a following runner has touched, or 2) the runner that missed enters dead ball territory, before you give the defense a ball. I was taught that mechanic after the USA team missed home after home run in Olympic play, and the (foreign) umpire honored the appeal earlier than it should have been (USA player missed home, but made no attempt to return, best as I recall).

Completely agree. This is how I was taught way back in the '60's, never offer a replacement ball until the entire play in front of you has been completed.

Forget the morons who stand there waving the glove (obviously, more in SP than FP) demanding another ball. Watch the runner touch the plate and leave the area and then reach into your bag and hand another ball to the catcher.

If you put a ball back into play, you should honor an appeal. So don't give it to the defense until the offense is done running bases. Just like allowing awarded bases to be touched after a ball is thrown out of play before awarding bases.

But I do not agree with this if based on the perceived implication noted above. The ball, no matter where it is or who is holding it, is not in play until the umpire says it is in play.

Yes, it is a good piece of umpiring if you do not give the defense the opportunity to make a stupid mistake, but when the ball is dead the offense must be allowed the opportunity to complete their running assignments and even return to a missed base or base left too soon.

And I do not believe you can ignore that simply because you handed the defense a ball before you should have done so. Yeah, you are going to take some crap, but that is your issue, not the offense's

[MD Longhorn]

I know ... wrong sport ... but:

I saw at a baseball game (HS) once where a player hit a home run, and about when runner was between 2nd and 3rd, PU put a ball in the catcher's glove - catcher threw to pitcher. BR, after rounding third, gave the pitcher a shi+-eating grin or chuckle or something and the pitcher fired at him (missed, but still ejected).

Another reason not to put a new ball in play, I suppose.

[rybo]

Why is a missed home plate situation any different then a missed base, do you say anything when a runner misses 1st, 2nd or 3rd base?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rybo

Why is a missed home plate situation any different then a missed base, do you say anything when a runner misses 1st, 2nd or 3rd base?

Other than the fact they are not required to keep contact with the plate

Mostly, it is not much different.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Other than the fact they are not required to keep contact with the plate

No they don't... they can proceed to the next base.