the hijacked portion of overrunning 1B and missing the base...

[Tru_in_Blu]

Had this in another thread where it was dissed as being not part of the original post. Guess if I had digressed on some discussion about beer or cigars, it might have been better received.

Anyhoos:

When a runner misses 1B and overruns, we call safe or out depending on where the runner was when the fielder received the throw. This is an appeal by the defense and must be done before the runner gets back to the base.

A lot of times F3 [or F4 covering 1B in bunt situations] will not realize the runner missed the base. Often times, the runner does realize s/he missed the base. Some runners are blatantly obvious in their attempt to get back, some are blatantly oblivious, some are very cool about it hoping no one noticed.

The question after all this is can anyone on the defense appeal the runner missing the base? Different for ASA/NFHS?

On a routine play, F1 or F4 may be in the best situation to see this [if they actually pay attention]. If they yell out "she missed the base!" do we accept the appeal as such, or must the runner be physically tagged?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Had this in another thread where it was dissed as being not part of the original post. Guess if I had digressed on some discussion about beer or cigars, it might have been better received.

Anyhoos:

When a runner misses 1B and overruns, we call safe or out depending on where the runner was when the fielder received the throw. This is an appeal by the defense and must be done before the runner gets back to the base.

A lot of times F3 [or F4 covering 1B in bunt situations] will not realize the runner missed the base. Often times, the runner does realize s/he missed the base. Some runners are blatantly obvious in their attempt to get back, some are blatantly oblivious, some are very cool about it hoping no one noticed.

The question after all this is can anyone on the defense appeal the runner missing the base? Different for ASA/NFHS?

On a routine play, F1 or F4 may be in the best situation to see this [if they actually pay attention]. If they yell out "she missed the base!" do we accept the appeal as such, or must the runner be physically tagged?

Speaking ASA...

Sure, any fielder can appeal it...

...if they're the one holding the ball.


Kidding aside...

It must be a proper appeal. If the ball's live, they must announce the appeal and tag 1B while holding the ball, or they must tag the runner with the ball (or with the glove that's holding the ball). If the ball is dead, any infielder (including pitcher or catcher) may make the appeal. The appeal must be made before the runner returns to 1B.

Calling out "she missed the base" when the ball's dead is good enough for me.

[Andy]

Dave...just wanted to point out that the specific scenario being discussed here, a B/R missing first base, can only be appealed as a live ball appeal by rule. A dead ball appeal is not available.

By the way....what's your favorite beer for after the game re-hydration???

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Andy

Dave...just wanted to point out that the specific scenario being discussed here, a B/R missing first base, can only be appealed as a live ball appeal by rule. A dead ball appeal is not available.

By the way....what's your favorite beer for after the game re-hydration???

Can you tell me where it says that a dead ball appeal is not allowed on the BR missing 1B? The likelihood of this happening during a game situation is EXTREMELY unlikely, I know, but I don't see where it says that it's not allowed. Personally, if there's a potential appeal, I'll let it play out and not call "time."

Cold and free.

If that's not available, then Leinenkugel's.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

Dave...just wanted to point out that the specific scenario being discussed here, a B/R missing first base, can only be appealed as a live ball appeal by rule. A dead ball appeal is not available.

By the way....what's your favorite beer for after the game re-hydration???

You make the unstated (and most often correct) assumption that the BR returned to first base, rendering a dead ball appeal moot (runner is now standing on base "missed", so has corrected). Since the appeal is a timing play (BR is assumed to have touched until appealed), once the correction is made, the appeal is no longer correct. However, if BR instead turns and safely reaches second base (on an overthrow, for example) without returning to touch first, then a dead ball appeal would be available, and could be honored.

As Darrell (and many others) well knows, I'm a cheap and indiscriminate beer drinker. Not only am I perfectly content with Bud Light, I will even turn to its cheaper cousins, Natural Light and Busch Light. Or Coors Light, just not Miller Lite. Quantity over quality, I say!! Let the self-proclaimed beer gurus disdain; I am content.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Can you tell me where it says that a dead ball appeal is not allowed on the BR missing 1B? The likelihood of this happening during a game situation is EXTREMELY unlikely, I know, but I don't see where it says that it's not allowed. Personally, if there's a potential appeal, I'll let it play out and not call "time."

Cold and free.

If that's not available, then Leinenkugel's.

To those unclear, we are talking ASA slow pitch mechanics only, here.

By changing your standard calling of "time" where there is no apparent play available, wouldn't you be tipping off the defense that you know of an appeal play that can be made? We aren't supposed to do that; consider the example of a missed tag and missed plate, where we do make a "safe" ruling (except NCAA, mind you) solely to avoid showing a variation that would tip one side or the other.

As a UIC or evaluator, I would disagree with your variation. Certainly, you wouldn't rush to call time to protect the violating runner. Perhaps a slight hesitation to make sure you aren't taking away a play they intend to make. But, if not apparent, you need to call time. And, then, having called time, you must allow runners to complete running responsibilities (returning to a base, retracing steps if desired, etc.) before you can honor a dead ball appeal. So that would result (in most cases) in the runner returning and touching the previously missed first base. A dead ball appeal is now simply too late, the runner is standing on the base.

Note that the NFHS rule quoted in the other thread clarifies what ASA leaves unsaid "even if she is standing on another base." Point being, no violation any more, if now standing on that base.

[Tru_in_Blu]

BR is running to 1B and the throw from an infielder is low and wide to the HP side of 1B. BR sees the bad throw and attempts to avoid being hit, or is actually hit by the ball, causing her to miss 1B. As she runs past, she loses her balance and falls onto the grass down the line. There is no obstruction by F3 and no interference by BR.

The BU dutifully declares the runner "safe!" as we are supposed to, incurring the rath of many uninformed fans, and hot moms.

Everyone on the field knows the base was missed. BR scrambles to her feet and darts back to the base. F3 retrieves the ball that went to the fence while F4 covers 1B. F4, standing on the colored portion of the base takes the throw from F3 a split second before BR slides back to the white portion of the base.

As BU, do you make a call right then? Or do you have to wait for someone to "appeal" the missed base? If the out would have been recorded based on the play, can someone appeal after the fact and before next pitch? Since everyone knows what's happening, does the fielder with the ball need to declare an appeal for a missed base while actively trying to deal with covering the base, catching a throw, and a sliding runner?

On a "left too early" call on a fly ball when a runner is trying to get back to a base and doesn't get there in time, umpire will just make the call without a verbal declaration from the defense. Similar or different for overrunning/missing 1B?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I'm a cheap and indiscriminate beer drinker. Not only am I perfectly content with Bud Light, I will even turn to its cheaper cousins, Natural Light and Busch Light. Or Coors Light, just not Miller Lite. Quantity over quality, I say!! Let the self-proclaimed beer gurus disdain; I am content.

Ummm....I believe they were talking about beer. They weren't talking about making love in a boat. You do know that is what your "Lite" beverages are, doncha? Making love in a boat. Why is a Miller Lite like making love in a boat? Because, it is f-ing near water!

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

BR is running to 1B and the throw from an infielder is low and wide to the HP side of 1B. BR sees the bad throw and attempts to avoid being hit, or is actually hit by the ball, causing her to miss 1B. As she runs past, she loses her balance and falls onto the grass down the line. There is no obstruction by F3 and no interference by BR.

The BU dutifully declares the runner "safe!" as we are supposed to, incurring the (w)rath of many uninformed fans, and hot moms.

Everyone on the field knows the base was missed. BR scrambles to her feet and darts back to the base. F3 retrieves the ball that went to the fence while F4 covers 1B. F4, standing on the colored portion of the base takes the throw from F3 a split second before BR slides back to the white portion of the base.

As BU, do you make a call right then? Or do you have to wait for someone to "appeal" the missed base? If the out would have been recorded based on the play, can someone appeal after the fact and before next pitch? Since everyone knows what's happening, does the fielder with the ball need to declare an appeal for a missed base while actively trying to deal with covering the base, catching a throw, and a sliding runner?

On a "left too early" call on a fly ball when a runner is trying to get back to a base and doesn't get there in time, umpire will just make the call without a verbal declaration from the defense. Similar or different for overrunning/missing 1B?

A couple of points for you to consider, Ted. We make a safe call when an apparent play has been made; we call "Safe" on the play I described at home to indicate there was no tag, when others might think there was. We aren't saying a base has been touched, or even passed. So, extending the philosophy of "no ball = no call", I'm not making, nor expecting you to make, a safe call when the ball is rolling around on the field on the play you describe. I might (although we know IrishMafia dislikes this NCAA suggested mechanic), make a short safe signal to reflect the "no interference, and no obstruction" status.

On a "left too early" on a fly ball, we are acknowledging that the obvious action of all is in recognition of the live ball appeal. If we recognize it is their intent to appeal, we don't require a special set of words; or even any verbal at all. We do NOT, however, recognize an "accidental appeal", where the fielder inadvertantly touches a missed base without appearing to be appealing something. If there is any doubt what they are doing, it must be verbalized.

So, in your play, if it is clear to you that the defense is making an appeal, rule on it. If the ball beat the runner, the verbalization can be skipped if obvious, and/or follow the timing of the base (or runner) being tagged prior to the runner returning, if you aren't clear what is the intent of the play. The timing part of the play is tagging the base or runner while off the base, not that both the tag and verbalization be complete before the runner returns.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Ummm....I believe they were talking about beer. They weren't talking about making love in a boat. You do know that is what your "Lite" beverages are, doncha? Making love in a boat. Why is a Miller Lite like making love in a boat? Because, it is f-ing near water!

As opinions go, well ....... that is one. You want something different, you can enjoy what you like, and I will enjoy what I like.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Steve,

Thanx for your detailed and concise reply. As usual, your answer is clear and logical. I think the key for me was the part about our being able to recognize the play that is being attempted. My first reaction would be to make the call in that situation and I was looking for some experienced explanation about how to do so.

When you mentioned "no ball, no call", I remembered that. In fact, I've had plays like that and made no call as you described.

Also, thanx for the "w". I actually do know how to spell "wrath" - must've been lazy with the proofreading.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

As opinions go, well ....... that is one. You want something different, you can enjoy what you like, and I will enjoy what I like.

Many years ago, (early 80's) I was sitting around after work, enjoying a few beers with a co-worker from England. We were on our 4th or so beer when he says,

"You know what the biggest problem is with American beer?"

I said, "No, what?"

"Avoiding drowning."

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Andy

Dave...just wanted to point out that the specific scenario being discussed here, a B/R missing first base, can only be appealed as a live ball appeal by rule. A dead ball appeal is not available.

By the way....what's your favorite beer for after the game re-hydration???

Unless, of course the ball becomes dead before the BR returns to 1st base (after over running)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

BR is running to 1B and the throw from an infielder is low and wide to the HP side of 1B. BR sees the bad throw and attempts to avoid being hit, or is actually hit by the ball, causing her to miss 1B. As she runs past, she loses her balance and falls onto the grass down the line. There is no obstruction by F3 and no interference by BR.

The BU dutifully declares the runner "safe!" as we are supposed to, incurring the rath of many uninformed fans, and hot moms.

Everyone on the field knows the base was missed. BR scrambles to her feet and darts back to the base. F3 retrieves the ball that went to the fence while F4 covers 1B. F4, standing on the colored portion of the base takes the throw from F3 a split second before BR slides back to the white portion of the base.

As BU, do you make a call right then? Or do you have to wait for someone to "appeal" the missed base? If the out would have been recorded based on the play, can someone appeal after the fact and before next pitch? Since everyone knows what's happening, does the fielder with the ball need to declare an appeal for a missed base while actively trying to deal with covering the base, catching a throw, and a sliding runner?

Unlike Steve, I would make the safe call simply because 8.3.B & 8.2.B indicates the runner is, indeed, safe. On the apparent appeal, the portion of the base used is irrelevant. And, yes, IMJ, an infielder is the person who declared the BR missed 1st base and shall be ruled upon once that play is executed. If you don't want to buy that, just give the fielder receiving the ball a WTF look and I guarantee, some "infielder" will clearly state that the BR is out for missing the base.

On a "left too early" call on a fly ball when a runner is trying to get back to a base and doesn't get there in time, umpire will just make the call without a verbal declaration from the defense. Similar or different for overrunning/missing 1B?

The umpire should make the call in such a manner if it is obvious the reason for the throw was to appeal the base left too early. But I'm pretty sure someone is going to indicate the reason for the throw to the base.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Not only am I perfectly content with Bud Light, I will even turn to its cheaper cousins, Natural Light and Busch Light. Or Coors Light, just not Miller Lite. Quantity over quality, I say!!

There we go! Gettin' half drunk is just wasting your money.

I had a family reunion over in Alabama, 'twixt Selma and Prattville, and I showed up with one of those fancy beers that you by by the six pack instead of by the case. My relatives took no pitty. "Don't be coming in here with no sippin' beer."