ISF / Overrunning 1st Base

[mach3]

ISF-Rules.

Rule 8
Section 9 The Runner is out
[…]
i. When the batter-runner becomes a runner by touching first base, passes it, then attempts to run to second base
and is legally touched with the ball in the hand(s) of a fielder, while off base.
[…]
EFFECT - Sec. 9g-j:
These are appeal plays and the runner will not be out unless the appeal is made legally.
1. Appeals may be made while the ball is alive or dead, but the defensive team loses the privilege of making an
appeal if it is not made

My questions are:
Why is this an appeal play? What do we expect the players to do?
What consequences does that have?

Thanks for your help.

Raoul

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by mach3
ISF-Rules.

My questions are:
Why is this an appeal play? What do we expect the players to do?
What consequences does that have?

Thanks for your help.

Raoul

Raoul,

They may be speaking on the premise that the "appeal" means the offense must take action to put the runner out. For example, if the BR becomes a runner, passes 1B then drops a shoulder in a manner which makes all believe he was advancing to 2B and then just turns and walks back to 1B. The umpire is not going to rule the runner out just because the defense screams he cannot do that.

I'm not saying that is the reason, just trying to think what could be meant by the statement. I had this happen at a SP World Cup last June in Plant City, FL. In a Co-ed game, a BR touched 1B then deeked a run for 2B. Slowly turning to the right, he then walked back to the base. The entire time, the 1B is yelling that he can't do that. She was right, but if she didn't tag him with the ball, so I had no call.

As far as I'm concerned, it is probably an error and something simply overlooked when the rules were approved for issue.

[Dakota]

It's also an appeal play in ASA.

My assumption as to why this is an appeal play is because it is not just a simple tag out for being off base, since the BR is allowed to overrun 1st. The defense is appealing to the umpire that the runner made an attempt for 2nd.

[gsf23]

I think form the reading of the rule that hte appeal would be to go over and touch the runner with the ball. It would have to be a live ball appeal.

Since the runner is allowed to overrun first by going over and tagging the runner you are appealing the fact that they didn't just over run the bag but tried to advance.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
It's also an appeal play in ASA.

My assumption as to why this is an appeal play is because it is not just a simple tag out for being off base, since the BR is allowed to overrun 1st. The defense is appealing to the umpire that the runner made an attempt for 2nd.

You are correct, though I believe calling it such is confusing. The rule doesn't declare anything should happen, but merely removes the exemption from liability to be put out. Of course, if any umpire kills the ball, there is no appeal allowed.

[gumshoes]

In Girls Fast-pitch, with the ball in the pitching circle and the batter/runner decides to make the same attempt after a "walk" was issued (with or without a runner at third) . Is the overrun towards second( 2 steps approx.) allowable ? Is this the "Indecision Rule" on the b/r without an appeal? No attempt is made by the pitcher to check the b/r back(throw).

[Edited by gumshoes on Jan 11th, 2003 at 06:19 AM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by gumshoes
In Girls Fast-pitch, with the ball in the pitching circle and the batter/runner decides to make the same attempt after a "walk" was issued (with or without a runner at third) . Is the overrun towards second( 2 steps approx.) allowable ? Is this the "Indecision Rule" on the b/r without an appeal? No attempt is made by the pitcher to check the b/r back(throw).

[Edited by gumshoes on Jan 11th, 2003 at 06:19 AM]

Speaking ASA

The Lookback (with the ball in the circle) allows the BR to continue through 1B and if they choose to continue in the dirction of 2B, that is also fine. That runner is allowed one stop. Once stopped, the runner must immediately decide to proceed or return. A second stop prior to reaching a base or failure to react immediately calls for the ball to be killed and the runner called out.

[KentuckyBlue]

Raoul, the procedure is no different (fielder runs up and tags runner before runner can return to first). It looks like a tag but it's really an "appeal" out, and you need to keep that in mind because the difference would be crucial should it be the third out and should another runner cross home before the appeal is completed.

A force is a force, of course, of course; and no run can score on a force, of course. Excuse me, I suddenly want some oats.

[WestMichBlue]

about calling this an appeal play. You guys have got it backwards. Start with the definition of an out. A runner is out when not in contact with a base and is tagged with the ball. Then read that there is an exception to the rule; that being that a runner past first base can return to the base without liability to be put out. But to "earn" that exception she must return immediately to the base. If she attempts to advance to second then she forfeits the exception. Now see rule one - " a runner is out when . . . . "

If R1 decides to continue to second, and dances and makes it difficult for a fielder to get her out - and R3 scores from 3B before R1 is tagged - run counts!

WMB

[WestMichBlue]

In the teenage venacular: "My bad!" FED book, under Appeal Procedures and Guidelines, says that this is indeed an appeal play. OK, I read it, but that raises more questions. (1) What if runner continued on to second and is tagged out by F4? (2) What if runner, knowing that she can not get back to 1B, decides to head for second and is tagged in the back by F3? (3) What if she heads for 2B, and goes back to 1B and F4's throw back to 1B beats her and F3 tags her out sliding into first? Can't all be appeal plays, can they?

Back to the appeal play: is this a force out? The book says "If an appeal is honored (it was) at a base to which a runner was forced to advance (batter-runner is forced to 1B) AND THE OUT IS A FORCE OUT, no runs would score if it was the 3rd out. Is this a force, or is the force off after the runner originally achieved 1B?

If this is a force out, and if 1, 2, and 3 above are not appeal plays, than a (really) sharp runner would take off for second and try to give her teammate on 3B time to score before she is put out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
about calling this an appeal play. You guys have got it backwards. Start with the definition of an out. A runner is out when not in contact with a base and is tagged with the ball. Then read that there is an exception to the rule; that being that a runner past first base can return to the base without liability to be put out. But to "earn" that exception she must return immediately to the base. If she attempts to advance to second then she forfeits the exception. Now see rule one - " a runner is out when . . . . "

If R1 decides to continue to second, and dances and makes it difficult for a fielder to get her out - and R3 scores from 3B before R1 is tagged - run counts!

WMB

WMB,

It's not us calling it an appeal play, that's the way it's written in the books.

As I stated before, I believe calling it an appeal play lends to some confusion on the part of umpires.

[mach3]

So we (the rules) call it appeal, but we handle it as any other tag-out after advancing toward 2nd Base?

Thanks for your help.

Raoul

[KentuckyBlue]

Calling it an appeal play is a technicality, an amusing trivial distinction that, like I said, only matters if it's (a) the third out and (b) happens either before or after another runner crosses the plate on that same play, which means you've got a sort-of time play to take care of.

In all the other cases you named where the runner does various tricks between first and second to delay the tag-out, you've left the area of appeal and the fielders are tagging out a runner in jeopardy. As with when it was an appeal, the status of a crossing run still depends on which happens first.

Kentucky Blue