Overrunning 1st base

[CecilOne]

On another forum, in answer to a question about overrunning 1st, I posted this:
The books say the runner is only liable to be put out if the runner makes an attempt to go to 2nd. The "turn right" myth is the result of coaches teaching that to players, so they will be seen as deliberately not trying for 2nd. It's good teaching, but players and others assume it is a rule because it is what they hear. Of course, a runner can "turn right" 270 degrees and still run toward 2nd, so umpire judgement and alertness is a factor.
Any comment?

[WestMichiganBlue]

As a H.S. coach I taught my players to turn left so they "see the field" and are in a position to advance if possible. Turning right is a sign of quiting; the player is not being alert.

Note that if the Look-back rule is in effect, a player that turns right is assumed to have committed to 1B. Any attempt to 2B and they are out. (That's probably the only time the words "turn right" show up in the rule book."

WMB

[SamNVa]

CecilOne said: Of course, a runner can "turn right" 270 degrees and still run toward 2nd, so umpire judgement and alertness is a factor

This is true except when the pitcher has the ball in the circle before the runner reaches 1st base, usually after a walk or a dropped 3rd strike, but it could apply to a fair batted ball too.

SamC

[CecilOne]

Right, I was just talking about general geometry and the returning to base appeal when the play is still in progress; without regard for the look-back rule.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

I personally tend to help the DEFENSE give up. When I feel the runner is done and is not planning to advance (independent of the direction they turned), I loudly call time, turn my back and walk back to home plate. The play is over and I am not going to honor any attempts to tag the runner out... or to now allow the runner to advance.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
... snip ... When I feel the runner is done and is not planning to advance (independent of the direction they turned), ... snip ...

And just at that moment, before hearing your "time", the fielder turns away and the runner heads for 2nd. Why not just see what happens, escpecially at the HS level or higher?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
I personally tend to help the DEFENSE give up. When I feel the runner is done and is not planning to advance (independent of the direction they turned), I loudly call time, turn my back and walk back to home plate. The play is over and I am not going to honor any attempts to tag the runner out... or to now allow the runner to advance.

The only problem with this is you are personally deciding the play is over, not letting the players decide. The ball is live. Nothing has happened on the playing field to cause a dead ball. Just because the runner should not try to advance doesn't mean she won't try.

If I am calling a single man game, I will call time to allow myself to turn my back on the field if I need to, but I will usually try to reset while watching, and allow the ball to stay live. Before I will call time in this situation, all playing action must have ceased and the pitcher must have the ball in the circle. IOW, the BR must have returned to 1B and stopped.

If I have a partner on the bases, the ball remains live while I return to my position.

Players are allowed to do stupid things; it's their game.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

The only problem with this is you are personally deciding the play is over, not letting the players decide. The ball is live. Nothing has happened on the playing field to cause a dead ball. Just because the runner should not try to advance doesn't mean she won't try.

If I am calling a single man game, I will call time to allow myself to turn my back on the field if I need to, but I will usually try to reset while watching, and allow the ball to stay live. Before I will call time in this situation, all playing action must have ceased and the pitcher must have the ball in the circle. IOW, the BR must have returned to 1B and stopped.

If I have a partner on the bases, the ball remains live while I return to my position.

Players are allowed to do stupid things; it's their game.

Now, now. You are all assuming fastpitch, aren't you? Instead of jumping to conclusions, maybe you should ask first.

And if it is FP and it is a one-umpire game, I have no problem with calling time at that point.

[SamNVa]

Dakota said:
Players are allowed to do stupid things; it's their game.

Yep, like the F3 who tried to catch the runner of guard by faking a throw back to the pitcher, then wheeling around quickly and tagging the runner. All she succeeded in doing was losing control of the ball nd throwing it into the 1st base dugout.

SamC

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Now, now. You are all assuming fastpitch, aren't you? Instead of jumping to conclusions, maybe you should ask first.

The topic started about the logistics of overrunning, added the look-back rule as a FP aspect and then became an umpiring philosophy discussion. The FP or SP difference makes a difference in the timeout call, but not necessarily in letting the players control whether the play is over. Yes, the examples are mostly FP, because there are more factors to consider. Even in SP, if the BR overruns 1st and stays there looking for the ball or checking the second baseman; the time out can wait until at least a step back toward 1st.

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
And if it is FP and it is a one-umpire game, I have no problem with calling time at that point.

In fact, I usually tell coaches before the game that being by myself means automatic time out when I turn my back.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Now, now. You are all assuming fastpitch, aren't you? Instead of jumping to conclusions, maybe you should ask first.

And if it is FP and it is a one-umpire game, I have no problem with calling time at that point.

Guilty as charged, Mike!

The only thing I can say in my defense is I only do JO FP, so I come at all of these discussions from that perspective.

Around here, virtually ALL of our FP games are one man games. We only use 2 man in invitational tournament championships and in official ASA Championship play.

I can't tell you how many times I've had coaches gripe about runners at 1B leaving early, or pitchers taking a little hop, or a missed (or made) swipe tag on a throw down to 2nd, or.... I just tell 'em that if getting those calls right every time is a priority, they should hire a 2 man crew.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne

The topic started about the logistics of overrunning, added the look-back rule as a FP aspect and then became an umpiring philosophy discussion.

Cecil,

Better go back and check the original post of this thread.

[CecilOne]

I wrote it and it is generic, not about FP or SP or softball or hardball or whatever. Please let me know what I said that identified it as SP. My request for comments brought out the FP specific look-back rule and the time out philosophy.

[gsf23]

All that the "turn right" does is takes the judgement of whether you are making an attempt at second out of the hands of the umpire. If you turn right you won't be taking the chance of an ump saying "too bad you tried for second, out." As an umpire, if a runner wants to turn left, no matter what they are playing, that's fine with me as long as they go right back to the bag. If they dilly-dally out there or take a step to second, then in my book they are making an attempt and if tagged, buh-bye.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne
I wrote it and it is generic, not about FP or SP or softball or hardball or whatever. Please let me know what I said that identified it as SP. My request for comments brought out the FP specific look-back rule and the time out philosophy.

You are correct, but it is about SOFTBALL. At no point did I say it was SP or even attempt to determine the game. I just noted that when DTTB mentioned calling "time" when he was convinced the play was over, those who responded jumped on him like he did something wrong assuming he was referring to FP. Well, DTTB didn't mention the discipline of softball he was working. All I was doing was asking those like Dakota to not assume anything.