overrunning first base and look back rule

[shipwreck]

I thought that I had this all figured out and now am not sure. When a ruuner overruns first base and lets say turns to her right, and THEN the ball is returned to the pitcher in the circle, is she committed to first or does the pitcher have to have the ball in the circle and THEN the runner overrun first, turn right to be committed to first? I just am not sure of the timing. Here is play we had that doesn't go completely like this play but here goes anyway. Batter hits a line drive to right field, fielder throws to first in an attempt to get a force out but runner beats the throw. She overruns first, turns to her right and starts to walk back to first, THEN the ball goes back to the pitcher in the circle. Before the runner returns to first, she takes off for second. My partner calls dead ball and runner out for look back violation. Is this correct? Does walking back to first and then ball going in the circle commit her to first? Thanks, Dave

[Steve M]

Dave,
For Fed & ASA, yes the BR in your play has committed to 1B. Here's the interp:

ASA, Fed - once she starts moving toward I b, she cannot go to 2b and she cannot stop. If she turns to the right she must go to lb. If she makes any movement back to the infield in any direction except directly to 2b, she must. return to lb. If she commits to 2b she must go to 2b. (A:8-7-T, POE 33; F: 8-7-3)

For college (and I assume AFA), it's a bit different. NCAA took a different interp to respond to a play that I think Washington State used. It's even called the Washington State rule. Here's that interp:

NCAA - once she starts moving toward lb and until she touches lb she may go to lb or 2b as long as she stays within the extended base path. Once she steps beyond the extended base path, she is committed to that base (12-18f5)

Addition 9/13- I noticed that I forgot a piece. While this is the way I have called and will continue to, it is not just my opinion or understanding. I've quoted from the softball rules differences book showing the ruling for all 3 sanctioning bodies - ASA, Fed, & NCAA.

Steve M

[Edited by Steve M on Sep 13th, 2003 at 09:13 AM]

[greymule]

Speaking ASA, I'm not sure that Steve M and I agree with regard to the look-back rule.

8-7-T-3-a through e apply while the pitcher has the ball in the circle. No overrunning or turning the runner does means anything until then. Wait until the pitcher gets the ball before you concern yourself with how a runner is overrunning or turning. The BR could overrun 1B, turn right, and walk all the way back to 1B, but until F1 gets the ball, BR can run to 2B.

So in the play you describe, if the moment the pitcher got the ball in the circle, the runner who had turned right immediately ran toward 2B, she would be OK. But if she had moved in any direction except toward 2B one instant after the pitcher got the ball, she could not legally run to 2B, and your partner's out call would be correct.

For example, the batter-runner could beat out a grounder to short, overrun 1B toward RF, turn right, start walking back toward 1B, and then run on F3's throw back to F1.

On another fine point, Part 'c' is confusing. "A batter-runner who over-runs 1B toward RF, turns left and moves directly toward 2B and stops is committed to 2B and must attempt to advance non-stop to 2B."

This appears to say that a runner can take a stop but then cannot choose which way to go. I cannot think of any other play in which this situation holds. Obviously, by making a motion toward 2B, the BR has forfeited her immunity from being put out, but I don't see why, after her stop, she can't attempt to return to 1B. Perhaps ASA considers the overrun itself a stop, but in that case her stop after her move toward 2B should make her out.

I'm sure someone will provide an explanation.

[TexBlue]

Rule 8-7-T-3-c is talking about when the pitcher already has the control of the ball and is in the pitcher's circle. If the runner overruns 1st and turns left, she's OK, as long as she goes to 1st. However, if she turns left "...and moves directly towards second...", in other words commits to 2nd, she's gonna be out if she stops after the commitment. She can turn left, move directly to 2nd and not stop and be safe. It's all timing. If she turned left, the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle, and the runner takes several steps towards 1st after control is attained, then commits to 2nd, she's gonna be out.


The way I understand it, that is.

Rick

[greymule]

I agree fully, TexBlue. But in their description, she did stop after her commitment. It says "moves directly toward 2B and stops." Commits and stops. If she must run to 2B and then stops, she must be out at that moment, not if she stops again.

The ASA book is full of sentences that don't mean what they say. Perhaps they meant "[With the ball in the circle,] a BR who over-runs 1B toward RF, turns left and moves directly toward 2B and stops is out, because she has committed to 2B and must attempt to advance non-stop to 2B."

[TexBlue]

Yep, I believe you're right. You're talking about ASA's sentences not meaning what you think, or being ambiguous. Try some of the other rule books in softball. Yikes!!!

Rick

[whiskers_ump]

TEXBLUE Wrote:

"Try some of the other rule books in softball. Yikes!!!"

Yea, try USFA....What a joke....



glen

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
I agree fully, TexBlue. But in their description, she did stop after her commitment. It says "moves directly toward 2B and stops." Commits and stops. If she must run to 2B and then stops, she must be out at that moment, not if she stops again.

The ASA book is full of sentences that don't mean what they say. Perhaps they meant "[With the ball in the circle,] a BR who over-runs 1B toward RF, turns left and moves directly toward 2B and stops is out, because she has committed to 2B and must attempt to advance non-stop to 2B."

ASA is pretty clear to me.

8.7.T. (Fast Pitch Only) LOOK BACK RULE
The 'Look Back' rule will be in effect when the ball is live, the batter-runner has touched first base or has been declared out, and the pitcher has possession and control of the ball within the pitcher's circle. The pitcher is considered to be in the pitcher's circle when both feet are on or within the lines.

This paragraph precedes all the conditions for implementation of the Look Back rule. Therefore, to discuss what is applicable when using the Look Back rule, the pitcher MUST have the ball in the circle or the rule is not in effect and all discussion pointless.



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Sep 13th, 2003 at 09:57 AM]

[greymule]

That part is clear to me, too. Until the batter has touched 1B and the pitcher has the ball in the circle, what the runners do is immaterial for the purposes of the look-back rule.

I do believe there is some ambiguity regarding Part c, however.

Ball in the circle. Runner overruns, turns left, makes a motion toward 2B and stops. Part c says (literally) that, now that she has stopped, she must proceed toward 2B non-stop. In what other situation can a runner stop between bases and not have a choice of which way to run?

A runner is either (1) permitted to stop and then immediately proceed one way or the other, or (2) not permitted to stop at all. Part c says a runner can stop but then must proceed in one direction only. I suspect that "and stops" should be deleted from Part c.

POE #33 (look-back rule) even contradicts Part c: "If, after the pitcher has the ball within the circle, the runner [who has overrun] starts back to the original base or forward to another base and then stops or reverses direction, the runner is out, unless the pitcher makes a play on the runner [it should say any runner].

POE #33 contains an known erroneous sentence. Perhaps Part c also fails to say what it means.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
That part is clear to me, too. Until the batter has touched 1B and the pitcher has the ball in the circle, what the runners do is immaterial for the purposes of the look-back rule.

I do believe there is some ambiguity regarding Part c, however.

Ball in the circle. Runner overruns, turns left, makes a motion toward 2B and stops. Part c says (literally) that, now that she has stopped, she must proceed toward 2B non-stop. In what other situation can a runner stop between bases and not have a choice of which way to run?

A runner is either (1) permitted to stop and then immediately proceed one way or the other, or (2) not permitted to stop at all. Part c says a runner can stop but then must proceed in one direction only. I suspect that "and stops" should be deleted from Part c.

POE #33 (look-back rule) even contradicts Part c: "If, after the pitcher has the ball within the circle, the runner [who has overrun] starts back to the original base or forward to another base and then stops or reverses direction, the runner is out, unless the pitcher makes a play on the runner [it should say any runner].

POE #33 contains an known erroneous sentence. Perhaps Part c also fails to say what it means.

Read the rest of the rule. Part "d" stipulates that a runner who over-runs first and steps in any direction other than toward 2B, is committed to that base.

Rule 8.7.T.3.a-e are "rules" specifically designed for the BR (this is used to distiguish the last batter from other activer runners). And I do not see where POE #33 contradicts Part c. Your so called "quote" above is not verbatim and it seems you have taken the liberty to insert what you believe them to be. The sentence you "quoted" refers to the "runner", not the BR as in the previous paragraph.

[greymule]

The quote from the POE is verbatim, except of course for the brackets, which traditionally indicate added explanatory material. I did put Part c in my own words, but I quoted it verbatim in a previous post.

I'm aware of what Part d says. It deals with being committed to return to 1B, and it poses no problem for me. Yes, if the BR who has overrun turns left and makes a motion anywhere but toward 2B, she is committed to 1B. It is Part c that presents the problem. It includes the words "and stops." In a and b, the runner who stops must go one way or the other. But in c, the runner who stops can proceed only toward 2B. That doesn't make sense to me. If the words "and stops" are deleted from c, then it becomes clear. Give it a read without those words and see whether you agree.

Part d defines a move that commits the BR to 1B. Part c defines a move that commits the BR to 2B. If the BR is committed to 2B, how can she then take a stop and not be called out?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
The quote from the POE is verbatim, except of course for the brackets, which traditionally indicate added explanatory material. I did put Part c in my own words, but I quoted it verbatim in a previous post.

I'm aware of what Part d says. It deals with being committed to return to 1B, and it poses no problem for me. Yes, if the BR who has overrun turns left and makes a motion anywhere but toward 2B, she is committed to 1B. It is Part c that presents the problem. It includes the words "and stops." In a and b, the runner who stops must go one way or the other. But in c, the runner who stops can proceed only toward 2B. That doesn't make sense to me. If the words "and stops" are deleted from c, then it becomes clear. Give it a read without those words and see whether you agree.

Part d defines a move that commits the BR to 1B. Part c defines a move that commits the BR to 2B. If the BR is committed to 2B, how can she then take a stop and not be called out?

As I noted in the previous post. In this rule, the batter turned runner is known as the BR to distinguish them from runners already active at the time of the pitch.

Your quote is from a paragraph addressing runners in general, not batter-runners. Rule 8.T.3.a-e deals exclusively with the BR, not the runner. The last I checked, this thread concerns overrunning first base which under every possible circumstance can only be addressed toward the BR.

Utilizing non-applicable citations does nothing to help come to a resolution.

Yes, Part "c" says stops. All this rule is doing is permitting the stop which all other runners are allowed, it just isn't giving the batter-runner the option of changing their mind.

The paragraph from POE #33 prior to the one from which you drew your quote is that which addresses the BR.

[greymule]

Your quote is from a paragraph addressing runners in general, not batter-runners.

Here's the paragraph, with my quote in bold:

"If a runner is moving toward a base, other than 1B, when the pitcher receives the ball in the circle, that runner must continue toward that base or be called out. [My edit: This statement is patently false. She is allowed a stop, after which she can proceed non-stop either way.] When returning to 1B after overrunning on a base on balls, the runner can stop as many times as needed as long as they [sic] do not attempt to go to 2B. Making an attempt or fake will justify the runner being called out. If, after the pitcher has the ball within the circle, the runner starts back to the original base or forward to another base and then stops or reverses direction, the runner is out, unless the pitcher makes a play on the runner. When a play is made on a runner, they may stop or reverse direction."

The second sentence above refers to the runner who has overrun on a base on balls, and clearly the third does as well. I thought the sentence is bold did also, but it does mention "original base" and "another base," so maybe it doesn't. But in that case the flow of logic in the paragraph is faulty. After all, the fourth sentence says "the runner"; it has not switched to "a runner."

But the POE is peripheral to my problem with Part c.

All this rule is doing is permitting the stop which all other runners are allowed, it just isn't giving the batter-runner the option of changing their mind.

It is hard to believe that there is just this one instance, to the exclusion of all others, in which a runner is allowed to stop between bases but cannot go either way.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
Your quote is from a paragraph addressing runners in general, not batter-runners.

Here's the paragraph, with my quote in bold:

"If a runner is moving toward a base, other than 1B, when the pitcher receives the ball in the circle, that runner must continue toward that base or be called out. [My edit: This statement is patently false. She is allowed a stop, after which she can proceed non-stop either way.] When returning to 1B after overrunning on a base on balls, the runner can stop as many times as needed as long as they [sic] do not attempt to go to 2B. Making an attempt or fake will justify the runner being called out. If, after the pitcher has the ball within the circle, the runner starts back to the original base or forward to another base and then stops or reverses direction, the runner is out, unless the pitcher makes a play on the runner. When a play is made on a runner, they may stop or reverse direction."

The second sentence above refers to the runner who has overrun on a base on balls, and clearly the third does as well. I thought the sentence is bold did also, but it does mention "original base" and "another base," so maybe it doesn't. But in that case the flow of logic in the paragraph is faulty. After all, the fourth sentence says "the runner"; it has not switched to "a runner."

But the POE is peripheral to my problem with Part c.

All this rule is doing is permitting the stop which all other runners are allowed, it just isn't giving the batter-runner the option of changing their mind.

It is hard to believe that there is just this one instance, to the exclusion of all others, in which a runner is allowed to stop between bases but cannot go either way.

I can read the rule, read the POE and read the clinic guide. It is also covered in the casebook, plays 8.8.59 through 8.8.63. I don't have any problem with them. You seem to want to argue the virtues of what a runner, a runner rounding 1B and a runner over-running 1B.

I have no problem recognizing the differences involving all three in the rule book.

As far as your problems with the exact wording of the POEs, you should probably contact your UIC and suggest a change. With a document which changes so often, along with the interpretations, I think demanding perfection is an overexpectation in this case.

JMHO,

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
I think demanding perfection is an overexpectation in this case.

I think that statement stands alone.

Just think... if ASA was perfect, none of us could be part of it!! Well, maybe me, but not all you guys...

Besides, the funny syntax in places is entertaining!