Appeal a turn toward second.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

as I understand it, this appeal is a live ball appeal that requires the runner to be tagged out, IF the defense wants to appeal properly. the OP describes an improper way of appealing that play. the runner is assumed safe until a proper appeal is made.

doing nothing isn't calling TIME, it's doing "not a thing", ball remains live. but doing nothing doesn't always mean nothing when you are requested for a response, which is what a live ball appeal is, a request. when an appeal is requested, you are expected to do something, respond. the longer you do nothing, the more you are communicating "something" anyways. there's almost no way out of that conundrum.

you are arguing doing nothing is better than doing anything at all. I am saying, it doesn't matter as long as what you do or say assists neither side. a null response of "ball is LIVE" would then be as good as nothing, but at least you responded w/ something, which is expected, and as good and about as useful to either side as nothing.

And all I am saying is that as the official contracted to provide a service you do so in accordance with the provisions and direction of the rules and manuals of the sanctioning body under which the game is being played.

[shagpal]

your comment was previously noted already. I do not know where in the rulebook or umpires manual that says that ignoring an appeal when requested is permissible. the discussion issue is what is an umpire's duty when the appeal is made as the OP described.

from the thread responses, you seem to maintain that doing nothing is not only acceptable, but is the only proper thing to do. I am not saying that it's not something you couldn't do. I am suggesting that doing nothing might be a cop out, and it could or might even be wrong. but I am working off the premise that when team asks an umpire in an appeal situation to rule, as in this instance, an umpire is obligated to respond and rule w/in a finite duration as prescribed in the umpire's manual.

when requested, the umpire has 4 possible responses, do NOTHING, call TIME, call OUT, call SAFE. when confronted with an appeal situation as OP described, does an umpire have all the elements to call OUT? is the umpire permitted to do and say NOTHING? if you call TIME, are you looking for a new job?

lets say for argument's sake an umpire rules SAFE at 1B on the OP's appeal situation. ball is still LIVE regardless. the D could still throw the ball back into the circle, or still run down and tag that runner, and if they do, it's still a live ball appeal. an initial ruling does not preclude further follow up appeal in NFHS. in ASA, not sure, I think you only get one.

since I am here to discuss, not to name call, and since you volunteered to help comment, please by all means, make the call.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And all I am saying is that as the official contracted to provide a service you do so in accordance with the provisions and direction of the rules and manuals of the sanctioning body under which the game is being played.

[ChampaignBlue]

I understand your dilemma. We as umps do coach, during the pregame for example when we remind players that there will be do hitting above the belt (ie slide, give up, go around). During the game, during a live ball, we can only call according to the rules. Eventually, no matter what, play will continue but we can't coach even if it is to both sides during a play. Even if you have a player acting up you do the coaching during a dead ball.

[shagpal]

are you in the "do nothing" camp too? I'm confounded by your reply. no one seems to want to setup up and make the call.

Originally Posted by ChampaignBlue

I understand your dilemma. We as umps do coach, during the pregame for example when we remind players that there will be do hitting above the belt (ie slide, give up, go around). During the game, during a live ball, we can only call according to the rules. Eventually, no matter what, play will continue but we can't coach even if it is to both sides during a play. Even if you have a player acting up you do the coaching during a dead ball.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by shagpal

are you in the "do nothing" camp too? I'm confounded by your reply. no one seems to want to setup up and make the call.

Shagpal,

At least five experienced umpires have given you their point of view. Because none of them agree with you, you keep asking the same question. Over and over. You're repeating yourself. You're being redundant.

Please, accept or reject the advice you've been offered. But let's move on!

[shagpal]

no, I came into this discussion late, and read varying view points, and seemed not one of was willing to call SAFE.

all except one voiced that it was necessary to respond somehow, all the others expressed that doing nothing is okay.

the NFHS umpires manual says you gotta give a call.

Originally Posted by argodad

Shagpal,

At least five experienced umpires have given you their point of view. Because none of them agree with you, you keep asking the same question. Over and over. You're repeating yourself. You're being redundant.

Please, accept or reject the advice you've been offered. But let's move on!

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by shagpal

no, I came into this discussion late, and read varying view points, and seemed not one of was willing to call SAFE.

all except one voiced that it was necessary to respond somehow, all the others expressed that doing nothing is okay.

the NFHS umpires manual says you gotta give a call.

I'm getting lost here....

How bout if you start at the beginning and state the play and your reaction.

We may have gone so far that we are seeing different situations.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by argodad

(snip)

...you keep asking the same question.
Over and over.
You're repeating yourself.
You're being redundant.

Brought to you by.................

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by shagpal

are you in the "do nothing" camp too? I'm confounded by your reply. no one seems to want to setup up and make the call.

I'm in the do nothing camp. In the OP everyone is standing around. The way I see it there is no call to make yet, so how could the umpire "step up"? There is no appealable play here so there is no call to make.

Also, as the saying goes, "Silence can't be misquoted." It usually applies to a different context but I think remaining silent will keep you out of trouble here as well.

[shagpal]

seth, way to step and man up. you didn't get nasty. alot of guys can learn from you.

honestly, my first reaction was to "do nothing" as well, so I am not blaming everyone's initial take. but remembering that every play deserves call, and that in this scenario, the OP is describing players expressly requesting a ruling on an appeal, got me thinking about TEX's point of view. I was appalled to see the reaction of those that seemed to gang mug Tex, because what he posted seemed to have merit, and the replies challenging him seemed empty and to lack merit.

unless there's some case study floating out there to dig up, and I can't know everything published, the ump manuals I have are very explicit on this issue, that an umpire is required to rule when an appeal is requested, and the play the OP described is explicitly appealable. an umpire can ask the appellants what is being appealed, and this is NOT considered coaching.


stat

Originally Posted by SethPDX

I'm in the do nothing camp. In the OP everyone is standing around. The way I see it there is no call to make yet, so how could the umpire "step up"? There is no appealable play here so there is no call to make.

Also, as the saying goes, "Silence can't be misquoted." It usually applies to a different context but I think remaining silent will keep you out of trouble here as well.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

seth, way to step and man up. you didn't get nasty. alot of guys can learn from you.

honestly, my first reaction was to "do nothing" as well, so I am not blaming everyone's initial take. but remembering that every play deserves call, and that in this scenario, the OP is describing players expressly requesting a ruling on an appeal, got me thinking about TEX's point of view. I was appalled to see the reaction of those that seemed to gang mug Tex, because what he posted seemed to have merit, and the replies challenging him seemed empty and to lack merit.

unless there's some case study floating out there to dig up, and I can't know everything published, the ump manuals I have are very explicit on this issue, that an umpire is required to rule when an appeal is requested, and the play the OP described is explicitly appealable. an umpire can ask the appellants what is being appealed, and this is NOT considered coaching.

Out of curiousity, are you an umpire? Or just a ballplayer out of CA? How much training have you experience? Every play deserves a call? Never heard that one because it really isn't so. If a throw is made to retire a runner at 2B and the ball gets by and is rolling in the outfield, do you still come up with a big safe? Ever hear of "no ball, no call"?

Tex misapplied a mechanic to a play that is described as an appeal play that truly is not an appeal play, but simply a live ball still in play where a runner may or may not advance and the defense can only stop the runner by putting them out or throwing the ball out of play. Something I believe we have established here via the rule book. I guess we really don't need a case study then, do we?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by shagpal

...every play deserves call,

No, it doesn't, but besides, no one has made a play here on which to make a call.

Originally Posted by shagpal

and that in this scenario, the OP is describing players expressly requesting a ruling on an appeal,

There is no appeal to rule on, regardless of what the player "requests." The only way to get the runner out is to tag the runner, not tag the base.