must obstructed runner physically touch base?

[Tru_in_Blu]

I'm recalling a play from last season and I'd like some inputs.

ASA 16U. I'm Plate Umpire in a 2-man game.

Two outs, R1 on 1B. B2 hits a liner that splits F7 and F8 and rolls to the fence. R1 is attempting to score. F2 is positioned in the basepath, about 12 feet up the line from HP. The relay throw is slightly inside the baseline and as F2 reaches for it, R1 slides into F2. The balls bounces off F2's glove about 4 feet towards the pitcher's circle.

At this point, I raised my left arm and verbalized "Obstruction!"

Meanwhile, B2 had rounded 2B and saw the ball get away from F2 and headed for 3B. F2 retrieved the ball and fired to F5. B2 was safe on a close play, which was called by BU who had properly trailed the play.

After F2 made the throw to F5, R1 got up and proceeded directly to her dugout on the 3B side of the field. She never did touch HP.

So now the dust has settled a bit, I call time out and both coaches approached me to figure out what had happened. I explained that I called obstruction of F2 for blocking the basepath without possession of the ball, and that the runner was awarded home. Of course the defense didn't care for that call and we danced around on that one for a while.

The Offensive coach then asked me if the run counts. Knowing that the runner never physically touched HP, I responded again by saying that the runner was awarded home. In the back of my mind, I'm wondering if the Defense will respond by appealing the runner missing the plate.

It basically ended there, and both coaches went back to their dugouts/buckets. And I'm thinking "let's get by the next pitch"!

So my questions:
1) Did R1, by leaving the field of play after the obstruction call, forfeit her right to come back onto the field and physically touch HP? Could she have come out of the dugout, walked over to HP and stepped on it legally?
2) Had the defense appealed prior to the next pitch, would R1 be out on appeal?
3) If the throw from F2 had sailed into left field and B2 scored, would 2 runs score? I.E. If defense appealed R1 missed HP, as the third out, subsequent run(s) would not count? Or, after the play, R1 could not go back to touch HP after a subsequent runner had scored?

I talked to a couple of other umps after the game. One of them was adamant that I should have killed the play at the point of obstruction. I maintained that the call is a delayed dead ball and while other action is going on, the play is still live. Another guy said that the runner is assumed to have touched the base so the run scores. He didn't seem to understand my question on the potential subsequent defensive appeal for missing HP.

Thanx for your interpretations.

[robbie]

In NSA it is a dead ball. Yes, in general a Delayed dead ball, but immediately dead if a play is being made on the obstructed runner.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by robbie

In NSA it is a dead ball. Yes, in general a Delayed dead ball, but immediately dead if a play is being made on the obstructed runner.

I cannot dispute NSA rulings. However, in ASA (original post), NFHS, and NCAA, the ball remains live with a delayed dead ball UNLESS the obstructed runner is otherwise out when played on while still protected. ASA citation 8.5-B, R/S 36, NFHS 8-4-3(b), NCAA 9.3.

Otherwise:

In ASA, the obstructed runner can be called out for missing a base, despite the obstruction, if properly appealed (8-5.B(1) Exception d Effect, R/S 36). The runner entering dead ball territory ends any opportunity to legally return, as would a succeeding runner scoring.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

...F2 is positioned in the basepath, about 12 feet up the line from HP....R1 slides into F2...R1 got up and proceeded directly to her dugout on the 3B side of the field. She never did touch HP....

OK, we have a runner proceeding most of the way home, and then diverting directly into her dugout without ever passing home (8-3-B states, "When a runner passes a base, the runner is considered to have touched that base. This also applies to awarded bases."). Since the runner did not pass home, she is not considered to have touched it.

Being obstructed does not relieve the runner of the obligation to properly run the bases. (8-5-B-NOTE1)

So, why isn't this runner merely declared out? (8-7-U)

[robbie]

I like that difference in the other rule sets.

NSA states:

"If a play is being made on the obstructed runner or if the batter-runner is obstructed before reaching 1st base, the ball is dead........"

This always leads to a question when taking the rule as written:

Lets say the runner is obstructed between 1B and 2B, and later a play is made on the runner at home plate. By the letter of this rule, there would be a dead ball because a play is being made on an obstructed runner.

I bekieve the rule should probably read: "If a play is being made on the obstructed runner WHILE BEING OBSTRUCTED, .........."

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

OK, we have a runner proceeding most of the way home, and then diverting directly into her dugout without ever passing home (8-3-B states, "When a runner passes a base, the runner is considered to have touched that base. This also applies to awarded bases."). Since the runner did not pass home, she is not considered to have touched it.

Being obstructed does not relieve the runner of the obligation to properly run the bases. (8-5-B-NOTE1)

So, why isn't this runner merely declared out? (8-7-U)

In my opinion, 8.7-U doesn't apply. It says runners are out if they abandon a base and leaves live ball territory; what base was abandoned? If the intent of the rule was to call out any runner that left the field and abandoned any effort to run the bases, wouldn't it say that? Could we assume the exact limitation of "abandon a base" was intended? Since the runner did not walk off a base into the dead ball territory, no base was abandoned, just the effort to legally advance.

A second line of discussion may turn this into a major circle-jerk. Suppose you DID invoke 8.7-U, and ruled the runner out for abandoning. Would you not then be required to award the same runner home, since abandoning a base is not one of the specificly listed exceptions to not being called out between the bases under 8.5-B(1)??

Third line of discussion; the intent of the obstruction rule is to negate the improper actions of the defense which impeded the runner. The exceptions to that protection are obvious baserunning violations, if not blatent efforts to supercede appropriate results using "protection". Here is a case where you could almost certainly conclude that the runner truly believed she is awarded home, and doesn't realize she still needs to touch that base. Since the defense violated, wouldn't it be most appropriate to require their proper appeal to retain any advantage gained from their obstruction?

Fourth line; your reference to 8.3-B quoted "When a runner passes a base, the runner is considered to have touched the base." The rule goes further to add "This also applies to awarded bases." When the delayed dead ball is called, you have effectively awarded the runner protection; either home, or can't be out, so back to third. Softball doesn't use the baseball designations of gross miss versus passing and missing; the only place for the runner after home is the dugout. You could equally argue that not touching home, but going to the dugout constitutes passing the base; is a runner passing solely based on what side of the field her dugout is situated? Do we penalize her for being in the 3rd base dugout, but require a different action if she runs to the 1st base dugout? Taken to an extreme; R1 on 1st, leaves on hit, which is caught for an out, the attempt to double off R1 is thrown into dead ball territory. Umpire properly awards 3rd; R1 cuts across the infield directly to third base. On a proper appeal, would you then refuse to call R1 out under the only applicable rule (8.3-B) because R1 didn't "pass" 2nd??

For all the above reasons (some more pointed than others), this is an appeal play to me.

[Dakota]

Steve,

In your first line of discussion, suppose there were no obstruction, merely a runner trotting toward home. If she decides to not proceed to home but to just divert into her dugout, would you not invoke 8-7-U? The gross miss vs. pass & miss (line of discussion 4) would mean that no active runner can EVER have 8-7-U invoked, only one who is not active and merely leaves her base. Would you apply this to a BR also?

I like #2 due to the discussion that could ensue. If entering the dugout takes away the runner right to touch home, but you have now declared her out, but that is not one of the exceptions for obstruction, so you now award home, a base she is not legally entitled to touch...

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In my opinion, 8.7-U doesn't apply. It says runners are out if they abandon a base and leaves live ball territory; what base was abandoned? If the intent of the rule was to call out any runner that left the field and abandoned any effort to run the bases, wouldn't it say that? Could we assume the exact limitation of "abandon a base" was intended? Since the runner did not walk off a base into the dead ball territory, no base was abandoned, just the effort to legally advance.

A second line of discussion may turn this into a major circle-jerk. Suppose you DID invoke 8.7-U, and ruled the runner out for abandoning. Would you not then be required to award the same runner home, since abandoning a base is not one of the specificly listed exceptions to not being called out between the bases under 8.5-B(1)??

Third line of discussion; the intent of the obstruction rule is to negate the improper actions of the defense which impeded the runner. The exceptions to that protection are obvious baserunning violations, if not blatent efforts to supercede appropriate results using "protection". Here is a case where you could almost certainly conclude that the runner truly believed she is awarded home, and doesn't realize she still needs to touch that base. Since the defense violated, wouldn't it be most appropriate to require their proper appeal to retain any advantage gained from their obstruction?

Fourth line; your reference to 8.3-B quoted "When a runner passes a base, the runner is considered to have touched the base." The rule goes further to add "This also applies to awarded bases." When the delayed dead ball is called, you have effectively awarded the runner protection; either home, or can't be out, so back to third. Softball doesn't use the baseball designations of gross miss versus passing and missing; the only place for the runner after home is the dugout. You could equally argue that not touching home, but going to the dugout constitutes passing the base; is a runner passing solely based on what side of the field her dugout is situated? Do we penalize her for being in the 3rd base dugout, but require a different action if she runs to the 1st base dugout? Taken to an extreme; R1 on 1st, leaves on hit, which is caught for an out, the attempt to double off R1 is thrown into dead ball territory. Umpire properly awards 3rd; R1 cuts across the infield directly to third base. On a proper appeal, would you then refuse to call R1 out under the only applicable rule (8.3-B) because R1 didn't "pass" 2nd??

For all the above reasons (some more pointed than others), this is an appeal play to me.

You are so effin reasonable, it's sickening.....

BTW, that would be the way I would rule (until over-ruled by a legal protest that was administered by someone who sees it the other way)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

For all the above reasons (some more pointed than others), this is an appeal play to me.

What he said!

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What he said!

And I didn't even use (but considered using) your favorite point on my example of missing without passing a base that the book doesn't state what the proper order of touching bases must be!!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

And I didn't even use (but considered using) your favorite point on my example of missing without passing a base that the book doesn't state what the proper order of touching bases must be!!

As a catcher, I picked up a little trick from another guy. It worked occasionally.

If a runner was coming home and there was no play, I would pick up the bat, hand it to the approaching runner a few steps up the line (but never between him and the plate) with a comment of some type like "nice hit". Every now and then, the runner would take the bat, say thanks and head toward the dugout without touching the plate. Once the runner stepped into the dugout, I would asked for a missed base appeal.

As you pointed out, the runner did not actually abandon a base, just forgot to touch one.

OTOH, if the runner had touched the plate on the way to 1B..........

[DeRef]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

As you pointed out, the runner did not actually abandon a base, just forgot to touch one.

OTOH, if the runner had touched the plate on the way to 1B..........

I can't wait to see you rule against Chaos in the States this year. I can see it now... Well Keith, he touched home on the way to first so the supposed triple is acutally a home run and you lose. Now go sit with Carlos in the dead ball box in left field.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Thanx for everyone's replies. I think I had it mostly right in the game.

Had the defense appealed the runner missing home, I was prepared to rule her out and anticipated a mess to follow. That's why I was hoping to get by the next pitch.

I made a mistake after the game during discussing with the offensive coach from the situation. He was getting the message that something else needed to be done when I told him a couple of times that the runner was awarded home. So he asked "what the catch was" and I told him that his runner should then have touched HP. In retrospect, because his runner had entered the dugout, that information was not correct. If she had stayed on the field, or gone over to talk to her coach, I think it would have been OK. So I did learn/clarify that piece of the situation.

A couple of more options to the original post, if you could indulge me.

1) When F2 throws to 3B, R1 goes to the dugout; throw goes into LF and BR then scores. Defense does appeal R1 missing home. That run is negated. Would the BR's run still count? [I think it would, since it's a timing situation.]
2) When R1 slides into F2, she bangs her knee and cannot stand up. This isn't a line drive to the pitcher's head situation, so no time out called, play continues. Again, throw goes into LF and BR attempts to score. She runs past R1, prone along the 3B line and touches HP. I think the proper call is to immediately rule BR out for passing a previous BR. Now we have the 3rd out of the inning. But since we had obstruction, and R1 is awarded HP, if she can get up or crawl over to HP and touch it, would her run count?

Thanx again.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

1) When F2 throws to 3B, R1 goes to the dugout; throw goes into LF and BR then scores. Defense does appeal R1 missing home. That run is negated. Would the BR's run still count? [I think it would, since it's a timing situation.]

Speaking ASA

If the appeal at home was the 3rd out of the inning, or a 4th out, the run would not count. (5.5.B.3 & C)

2) When R1 slides into F2, she bangs her knee and cannot stand up. This isn't a line drive to the pitcher's head situation, so no time out called, play continues.

Huh? What does the pitcher or a line drive have to do with a runner sliding into home?

Again, throw goes into LF and BR attempts to score. She runs past R1, prone along the 3B line and touches HP. I think the proper call is to immediately rule BR out for passing a previous BR. Now we have the 3rd out of the inning. But since we had obstruction, and R1 is awarded HP, if she can get up or crawl over to HP and touch it, would her run count?

That's a damn good question and to be honest, I can sell it both ways. By the letter of the rule, the answer would be no. Common sense and using the intent of the obstruction rule, it could be yes.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

1) When F2 throws to 3B, R1 goes to the dugout; throw goes into LF and BR then scores. Defense does appeal R1 missing home. That run is negated. Would the BR's run still count? [I think it would, since it's a timing situation.]
2) When R1 slides into F2, she bangs her knee and cannot stand up. This isn't a line drive to the pitcher's head situation, so no time out called, play continues. Again, throw goes into LF and BR attempts to score. She runs past R1, prone along the 3B line and touches HP. I think the proper call is to immediately rule BR out for passing a previous BR. Now we have the 3rd out of the inning. But since we had obstruction, and R1 is awarded HP, if she can get up or crawl over to HP and touch it, would her run count?

Thanx again.

Timing doesn't matter; no runner following the runner that makes the third out can score.

Like Mike, I agree it can be a hairy call on Q2. I would agree that the preceding runner being awarded home should be allowed to score; and her ability to crawl there isn't pertinent, as a sub can complete the running of an injured player.

I would love to rely on the wording of "and all other runners affected" to not call the out on BR, but the clear exception of passing makes that difficult (although it does specify that exception to the obstructed runner, not necessarily to others affected by the obstruction, so I might have an argument).