must obstructed runner physically touch base?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

...F2 is positioned in the basepath, about 12 feet up the line from HP....R1 slides into F2...R1 got up and proceeded directly to her dugout on the 3B side of the field. She never did touch HP....

OK, we have a runner proceeding most of the way home, and then diverting directly into her dugout without ever passing home (8-3-B states, "When a runner passes a base, the runner is considered to have touched that base. This also applies to awarded bases."). Since the runner did not pass home, she is not considered to have touched it.

Being obstructed does not relieve the runner of the obligation to properly run the bases. (8-5-B-NOTE1)

So, why isn't this runner merely declared out? (8-7-U)

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

OK, we have a runner proceeding most of the way home, and then diverting directly into her dugout without ever passing home (8-3-B states, "When a runner passes a base, the runner is considered to have touched that base. This also applies to awarded bases."). Since the runner did not pass home, she is not considered to have touched it.

Being obstructed does not relieve the runner of the obligation to properly run the bases. (8-5-B-NOTE1)

So, why isn't this runner merely declared out? (8-7-U)

In my opinion, 8.7-U doesn't apply. It says runners are out if they abandon a base and leaves live ball territory; what base was abandoned? If the intent of the rule was to call out any runner that left the field and abandoned any effort to run the bases, wouldn't it say that? Could we assume the exact limitation of "abandon a base" was intended? Since the runner did not walk off a base into the dead ball territory, no base was abandoned, just the effort to legally advance.

A second line of discussion may turn this into a major circle-jerk. Suppose you DID invoke 8.7-U, and ruled the runner out for abandoning. Would you not then be required to award the same runner home, since abandoning a base is not one of the specificly listed exceptions to not being called out between the bases under 8.5-B(1)??

Third line of discussion; the intent of the obstruction rule is to negate the improper actions of the defense which impeded the runner. The exceptions to that protection are obvious baserunning violations, if not blatent efforts to supercede appropriate results using "protection". Here is a case where you could almost certainly conclude that the runner truly believed she is awarded home, and doesn't realize she still needs to touch that base. Since the defense violated, wouldn't it be most appropriate to require their proper appeal to retain any advantage gained from their obstruction?

Fourth line; your reference to 8.3-B quoted "When a runner passes a base, the runner is considered to have touched the base." The rule goes further to add "This also applies to awarded bases." When the delayed dead ball is called, you have effectively awarded the runner protection; either home, or can't be out, so back to third. Softball doesn't use the baseball designations of gross miss versus passing and missing; the only place for the runner after home is the dugout. You could equally argue that not touching home, but going to the dugout constitutes passing the base; is a runner passing solely based on what side of the field her dugout is situated? Do we penalize her for being in the 3rd base dugout, but require a different action if she runs to the 1st base dugout? Taken to an extreme; R1 on 1st, leaves on hit, which is caught for an out, the attempt to double off R1 is thrown into dead ball territory. Umpire properly awards 3rd; R1 cuts across the infield directly to third base. On a proper appeal, would you then refuse to call R1 out under the only applicable rule (8.3-B) because R1 didn't "pass" 2nd??

For all the above reasons (some more pointed than others), this is an appeal play to me.

[Dakota]

Steve,

In your first line of discussion, suppose there were no obstruction, merely a runner trotting toward home. If she decides to not proceed to home but to just divert into her dugout, would you not invoke 8-7-U? The gross miss vs. pass & miss (line of discussion 4) would mean that no active runner can EVER have 8-7-U invoked, only one who is not active and merely leaves her base. Would you apply this to a BR also?

I like #2 due to the discussion that could ensue. If entering the dugout takes away the runner right to touch home, but you have now declared her out, but that is not one of the exceptions for obstruction, so you now award home, a base she is not legally entitled to touch...

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In my opinion, 8.7-U doesn't apply. It says runners are out if they abandon a base and leaves live ball territory; what base was abandoned? If the intent of the rule was to call out any runner that left the field and abandoned any effort to run the bases, wouldn't it say that? Could we assume the exact limitation of "abandon a base" was intended? Since the runner did not walk off a base into the dead ball territory, no base was abandoned, just the effort to legally advance.

A second line of discussion may turn this into a major circle-jerk. Suppose you DID invoke 8.7-U, and ruled the runner out for abandoning. Would you not then be required to award the same runner home, since abandoning a base is not one of the specificly listed exceptions to not being called out between the bases under 8.5-B(1)??

Third line of discussion; the intent of the obstruction rule is to negate the improper actions of the defense which impeded the runner. The exceptions to that protection are obvious baserunning violations, if not blatent efforts to supercede appropriate results using "protection". Here is a case where you could almost certainly conclude that the runner truly believed she is awarded home, and doesn't realize she still needs to touch that base. Since the defense violated, wouldn't it be most appropriate to require their proper appeal to retain any advantage gained from their obstruction?

Fourth line; your reference to 8.3-B quoted "When a runner passes a base, the runner is considered to have touched the base." The rule goes further to add "This also applies to awarded bases." When the delayed dead ball is called, you have effectively awarded the runner protection; either home, or can't be out, so back to third. Softball doesn't use the baseball designations of gross miss versus passing and missing; the only place for the runner after home is the dugout. You could equally argue that not touching home, but going to the dugout constitutes passing the base; is a runner passing solely based on what side of the field her dugout is situated? Do we penalize her for being in the 3rd base dugout, but require a different action if she runs to the 1st base dugout? Taken to an extreme; R1 on 1st, leaves on hit, which is caught for an out, the attempt to double off R1 is thrown into dead ball territory. Umpire properly awards 3rd; R1 cuts across the infield directly to third base. On a proper appeal, would you then refuse to call R1 out under the only applicable rule (8.3-B) because R1 didn't "pass" 2nd??

For all the above reasons (some more pointed than others), this is an appeal play to me.

You are so effin reasonable, it's sickening.....

BTW, that would be the way I would rule (until over-ruled by a legal protest that was administered by someone who sees it the other way)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

For all the above reasons (some more pointed than others), this is an appeal play to me.

What he said!

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What he said!

And I didn't even use (but considered using) your favorite point on my example of missing without passing a base that the book doesn't state what the proper order of touching bases must be!!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

And I didn't even use (but considered using) your favorite point on my example of missing without passing a base that the book doesn't state what the proper order of touching bases must be!!

As a catcher, I picked up a little trick from another guy. It worked occasionally.

If a runner was coming home and there was no play, I would pick up the bat, hand it to the approaching runner a few steps up the line (but never between him and the plate) with a comment of some type like "nice hit". Every now and then, the runner would take the bat, say thanks and head toward the dugout without touching the plate. Once the runner stepped into the dugout, I would asked for a missed base appeal.

As you pointed out, the runner did not actually abandon a base, just forgot to touch one.

OTOH, if the runner had touched the plate on the way to 1B..........

[DeRef]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

As you pointed out, the runner did not actually abandon a base, just forgot to touch one.

OTOH, if the runner had touched the plate on the way to 1B..........

I can't wait to see you rule against Chaos in the States this year. I can see it now... Well Keith, he touched home on the way to first so the supposed triple is acutally a home run and you lose. Now go sit with Carlos in the dead ball box in left field.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Thanx for everyone's replies. I think I had it mostly right in the game.

Had the defense appealed the runner missing home, I was prepared to rule her out and anticipated a mess to follow. That's why I was hoping to get by the next pitch.

I made a mistake after the game during discussing with the offensive coach from the situation. He was getting the message that something else needed to be done when I told him a couple of times that the runner was awarded home. So he asked "what the catch was" and I told him that his runner should then have touched HP. In retrospect, because his runner had entered the dugout, that information was not correct. If she had stayed on the field, or gone over to talk to her coach, I think it would have been OK. So I did learn/clarify that piece of the situation.

A couple of more options to the original post, if you could indulge me.

1) When F2 throws to 3B, R1 goes to the dugout; throw goes into LF and BR then scores. Defense does appeal R1 missing home. That run is negated. Would the BR's run still count? [I think it would, since it's a timing situation.]
2) When R1 slides into F2, she bangs her knee and cannot stand up. This isn't a line drive to the pitcher's head situation, so no time out called, play continues. Again, throw goes into LF and BR attempts to score. She runs past R1, prone along the 3B line and touches HP. I think the proper call is to immediately rule BR out for passing a previous BR. Now we have the 3rd out of the inning. But since we had obstruction, and R1 is awarded HP, if she can get up or crawl over to HP and touch it, would her run count?

Thanx again.