2020, anyone?

[RKBUmp]

Couple of years ago they had 2 or 3 complexes going for Gold nationals and it was basically a 3 day tournament. Not sure why they cut back to just the main complex, but would have to agree that dragging it out over 8 days was a little much.

As for the heat, its August in the middle of summer. Most places in the US are going to be hot, we arent all in southern CA. Heck, Souix Falls, SD was hot in August and Owensboro was even worse than OKC.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Couple of years ago they had 2 or 3 complexes going for Gold nationals and it was basically a 3 day tournament. Not sure why they cut back to just the main complex, but would have to agree that dragging it out over 8 days was a little much.

As for the heat, its August in the middle of summer. Most places in the US are going to be hot, we arent all in southern CA. Heck, Souix Falls, SD was hot in August and Owensboro was even worse than OKC.

There is a plan to increase the number of fields by at least two, but maybe more (4?). I think they may be waiting on another city bond which is expected (if not already) to be approved.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Couple of years ago they had 2 or 3 complexes going for Gold nationals and it was basically a 3 day tournament. Not sure why they cut back to just the main complex, but would have to agree that dragging it out over 8 days was a little much.

As for the heat, its August in the middle of summer. Most places in the US are going to be hot, we arent all in southern CA. Heck, Souix Falls, SD was hot in August and Owensboro was even worse than OKC.

I think its just money. People from CA cant just rent a car an go home after they lose in okc its a lot of real money to qualify and go to these events. I remember one time a coach said "you know, that cost me 15K".. so money is real and I think perhaps those doing the gold have kind of been forgetting about that.
Plus that useless ACE program and these things keep adding up.
Plus confiscating $1000's worth of the favorite bat.

I do think maybe ASA's voting body might need to rethink a little.

Personally I dont see this thing lasting very well or doing very well. The concept of a "good ole boys" tourney seems doomed. But that doesnt mean they dont have valid points. It also dont mean that if it goes through, next years gold will be pretty weak.

His surf city show cases are ok, but you dont hear about them even like you hear about fireworks. Its just a so cal thing with so cal umps and a few nor cal guys go down there. All the good teams go. Not sure what Phil G will be reacting, but that might be another factor.

[tcannizzo]

The complaint about college players is legit.

College softball is a professional level sport. Most players are shocked when they get there. The regimen is NOTHING like high school, NOTHING like travel ball.

These players are up at 5:30am for conditioning, and practice in the AM before classes at 9. After classes at 4pm, which are scheduled around softball, they spend another 5 hours on practices, training and more conditioning, etc. They get back to their rooms at 1030pm to do their homework, then they get up at 530am the next day and do it again. They are are spending the entire school year with 6 to 8 hours EVERY DAY working on softball.

Using the 14-u analogy with high school is absurd. College players are are not "students" they are "employees". Paid to play. Coaches get paid to win, not just games, but NCAA Regionals, Super Regionals and the WCWS.

True, many players at Gold Nats are committed, signed, etc. But then why do so many college coaches attend Gold Nats? They are there to see players. They want to see them on a level playing field; not against the hired guns that come back that are head and shoulders above the AMATEUR players. After all, it is the Amateur Softball Association.

And why does ASA charge them $100 for the book?

There are coaches bring in the hired guns so that they can WIN a Nationals for the purpose of recruiting players in subsequent seasons. Why? Because ASA has declared them as eligible.

Some argue that by keeping the college players as eligible allows college coaches to see these players actually play against college players. The flaw in this thinking is that the college players are evenly distributed across all the teams, and that all players are equally challenged. Bull hockey!

College coaches want to see these players in their own element and how these players stack up against the rest of the field, not against college players.

To use the "straw man" that ASA exists ONLY to be the NGB, and that college recruiting is not a concern of the ASA, is a weak excuse to ignore significant issues that detract from the integrity of the JO program.

To say that this current effort is simply another "likely to fail" effort like the others that make up the alphabet soup, is excessively arrogant and turning a deaf ear to what the elite players are working for, even at 10-U.

To say that these coaches are "whining" clearly demonstrates the unwillingness of the ASA to listen to its registered members. Like the CEO's of many failed companies who said, "To hell with what the customers are saying, they don't know anything about what they REALLY want in a product. They'll be back, heh, heh." I worked for a company like that once and yes the customers did come back and they said, "All right, where do I sign this damned thing?" It worked for a while, but one day, POOF they were gone.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

The complaint about college players is legit.

College softball is a professional level sport. Most players are shocked when they get there. The regimen is NOTHING like high school, NOTHING like travel ball.

These players are up at 5:30am for conditioning, and practice in the AM before classes at 9. After classes at 4pm, which are scheduled around softball, they spend another 5 hours on practices, training and more conditioning, etc. They get back to their rooms at 1030pm to do their homework, then they get up at 530am the next day and do it again. They are are spending the entire school year with 6 to 8 hours EVERY DAY working on softball. ... College players are are not "students" they are "employees". Paid to play. Coaches get paid to win, not just games, but NCAA Regionals, Super Regionals and the WCWS.... yadda yadda yadda....

"College" is more than top 25 Div I.

[tcannizzo]

Yes it is. And what I wrote includes 100's of "colleges" in all Divisions.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

yes it is. And what i wrote includes 100's of "colleges" in all divisions.

Large time commitment, sure, but "employees"? "paid to play"? BS.

[RKBUmp]

I can see both sides of the issue. My daughter played for some pretty crazy club ball coaches, but none of them come even close to the workouts she does in college. At most, club ball practiced 3 times a week, college is usually 6 days a week plus weight lifting, conditioning etc. And when they arent practicing, they are out fund raising.

Are they paid? Not in cash, but they are exchanging playing softball for an education any other student would have to pay some amount of money for. Some colleges are $30k+ per year.

ASA does not allow players to drop skill levels once they have played in qualifiers. An 18 gold player can not drop to 18's, and a 16 player that has played up in 18's can not drop back to 16's. I would tend to argue that a lot of college programs are a level above gold. Are they all? Not even close, but where do you draw the line?

[argodad]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Yes it is. And what I wrote includes 100's of "colleges" in all Divisions.

Tony,
My DD's experience (four years at a top-tier DII) isn't at all representative of your generalizations.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by argodad

Tony,
My DD's experience (four years at a top-tier DII) isn't at all representative of your generalizations.

Larry, I respect that and I believe what you wrote.
While my position is one of generalizations, but I did not even come close to saying it was at 100% across the board. I believe by saying that "100's of colleges" do this, that I am in the "grossly under-estimated" category.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

The complaint about college players is legit.

If you were referring to a showcase, you are correct. Otherwise, I don't think so.

College softball is a professional level sport. Most players are shocked when they get there. The regimen is NOTHING like high school, NOTHING like travel ball.

The players do NOT receive legal tender. They cannot spend, barter or trade their scholarship for goods or services of any type. They are offered the opportunity to attend a particular school for a particular period of time in exchange for their services as a recruiting tool.

True, many players at Gold Nats are committed, signed, etc. But then why do so many college coaches attend Gold Nats? They are there to see players. They want to see them on a level playing field; not against the hired guns that come back that are head and shoulders above the AMATEUR players. After all, it is the Amateur Softball Association.

And, again, they are not being paid. If they were, they would not qualify to to play in the NCAA. Yes, they are already in the NCAA, but eligibility requirements do not cease once in school. If anything, requirements and restrictions are more stringent.

Coaches go to see players on a predetermined list at a high level of competition. If teams having college players is such a bad thing, then you have to ask yourself why the coaches continue to come? Are they that stupid? I don't think so, but as I have noted previously, the coaches with whom I have spoken prefer to see their prospects under stress and where else can you get a more stressful and competitive situation for a player than at an ASA National tournament against the best.

And why does ASA charge them $100 for the book?

Oh, I don't know, to cover the cost?

There are coaches bring in the hired guns so that they can WIN a Nationals for the purpose of recruiting players in subsequent seasons. Why? Because ASA has declared them as eligible.

Not true, ASA makes no such declaration. The player simply enjoys the same eligibility afforded EVERY female in the country who meets the specific requirments set forth in the code and AFA JO ball, none refer to any particular instituion, educational or otherwise.

Some argue that by keeping the college players as eligible allows college coaches to see these players actually play against college players. The flaw in this thinking is that the college players are evenly distributed across all the teams, and that all players are equally challenged. Bull hockey!

College coaches want to see these players in their own element and how these players stack up against the rest of the field, not against college players.

So if the college coaches are against this, why do they allow their players to participate?

To use the "straw man" that ASA exists ONLY to be the NGB, and that college recruiting is not a concern of the ASA, is a weak excuse to ignore significant issues that detract from the integrity of the JO program.

Hey, Mr. Pot, ever meet Mr. Kettle?

To say that these coaches are "whining" clearly demonstrates the unwillingness of the ASA to listen to its registered members. Like the CEO's of many failed companies who said, "To hell with what the customers are saying, they don't know anything about what they REALLY want in a product. They'll be back, heh, heh." I worked for a company like that once and yes the customers did come back and they said, "All right, where do I sign this damned thing?" It worked for a while, but one day, POOF they were gone.

This is almost as absurd as some of your arguments guised as an umpire.

Again, ASA's job is to promote the game of softball to ALL, not just those hoping for an education which is so far from free AAA couldn't get you there.. It is also to provide a path for determining a national champion, developing and assembling a national team to represent the USA.

But, as usual, no one is willing to own up to the fact that the people in control of the entire situation are................ready.................think you can handle this Tony?............................................. ............the coaches!

If the college coaches don't want them to play in the 18U anything, all they have to do is say the word. Period! How many college players are going to participate at any level after their coaches instructed them to not and well aware that the coach WILL find out and pull the scholarship?

Sorry, Tony, but Straw Man is on your roster.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

This is almost as absurd as some of your arguments guised as an umpire.

As always, Mike, the role model of guised professionals everywhere.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

These players are up at 5:30am for conditioning, and practice in the AM before classes at 9. After classes at 4pm, which are scheduled around softball, they spend another 5 hours on practices, training and more conditioning, etc. They get back to their rooms at 1030pm to do their homework, then they get up at 530am the next day and do it again. They are are spending the entire school year with 6 to 8 hours EVERY DAY working on softball.

Using the 14-u analogy with high school is absurd. College players are are not "students" they are "employees". Paid to play.

Then they are in violation of NCAA eligibility rules and the NFCA Code of Ethics.

Hell, we just as well ask the DOJ for a full scale investigation and shut own the entire program since, according to you, they are all cheating and in violation.

[tcannizzo]

NCAA puts a maximum of 20 mandatory hours per week. Coaches and AD's know how to play the game. This is where it breaks down. You get a scholarship, and only put in the mandatory, and you are GONE!

This is not news. The NCAA knows EXACTLY what is going on, and puts on the game face, which is where the farce of denial begins.

I am not going to take the bait as to the definition of "cheating" there are several threads on this board and others that never end. They are not in violation because the other 60 hours per week are published as "non-mandatory".

We don't need the DOJ to close down the program, but an honest and simple investigation by the ASA should be very revealing.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

NCAA puts a maximum of 20 mandatory hours per week. Coaches and AD's know how to play the game. This is where it breaks down. You get a scholarship, and only put in the mandatory, and you are GONE!

This is not news. The NCAA knows EXACTLY what is going on, and puts on the game face, which is where the farce of denial begins.

I am not going to take the bait as to the definition of "cheating" there are several threads on this board and others that never end. They are not in violation because the other 60 hours per week are published as "non-mandatory".

We don't need the DOJ to close down the program, but an honest and simple investigation by the ASA should be very revealing.

And why should the ASA investigate anything, they are not the one's with a complaint. Come to think of it, neither are the college coaches or players.

It seems, the only ones that seem to have a problem are those who rely upon selling their services and the parents who buy into them.

Hmmmm......