2020, anyone?

[AtlUmpSteve]

More specifically (grammar can always be an issue, as you took the phrase out of context), it is a reference to the two types of obstruction (when rounding or returning to a base) that NCAA addresses differently; with a warning to the player on a first offense, and an automatic forward base award if the same player commits a second offense.

It is presumed that these, by their nature, are intentional acts, not the random accident which should only be negated; so there should be a more punitive response.

[Big Slick]

I love the irony of playing with a college rule but not allowing college players.

[Dakota]

All I've read (here, other boards, and on the web site of the tournament) still boils this down to:

o Cali coaches have their nose out of joint about having to travel to the land of the infidels instead of having the permanent home of the Gold tournament in mecca

o Cali coaches don't like being beaten by teams with college freshmen players and having to deal with parents upset because their little "Jenny Finch" did not get the scholarship to the Pac-10 school they were promised (by the coach, of course).

Everything else is window-dressing to make it appear that they have a legitimate beef with ASA.

[Shmuelg]

FWIW, both Men's and Women's Fastpitch are still in the third largest international sporting event in the world - the Maccabiah.

Nice, but it's not the Olympics.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

All I've read (here, other boards, and on the web site of the tournament) still boils this down to:

o Cali coaches have their nose out of joint about having to travel to the land of the infidels instead of having the permanent home of the Gold tournament in mecca

o Cali coaches don't like being beaten by teams with college freshmen players and having to deal with parents upset because their little "Jenny Finch" did not get the scholarship to the Pac-10 school they were promised (by the coach, of course).

Everything else is window-dressing to make it appear that they have a legitimate beef with ASA.

Tom, I think you are missing the biggest bullet points; the ones that have the teams outside California most upset.

Their most legitimate complaint is the length of the tournament, and the amount of time needed to play a 64 team tournament. They need to arrive the Saturday before the tournament starts, with required activities on Sunday; and, since they need to assume they will be in the championship games the next Sunday, make return flights the next Monday. That's 10 days. Of the 64 teams, 16 will play 4 games, 16 will play 5 games; in 10 days. Most would be willing to play that many games in 1 day, happy to play that many in 2 days. The cause is the location (which is probably secondary to the problem, not a different problem); it is a 4 field complex when the tournament should be played on an 8 field complex. That simple.

(And, the remote site used just to shorten pool play is not championship quality, and hardly should be used even for pool play. Forget using it to shorten the brackets.) Although a bond issue has been approved by OKC to expand the HOF complex, no telling when that would be available, and they have been unhappy for years. Just what do you do with 15-20 teens with all that down time in OKC?? It is an alright place to visit, but not to entertain all those teens. Particularly those there for the 3rd 10 day visit!!

The second issue is more basic than even that. For years, ASA officials (not umpires) have asked the Gold coaches what they could do to make it better; for years, very few of their ideas have left that room or the survey. If ASA is inherently opposed and unable to eliminate college players that are age eligible, that needed to be explained up front, and not let the coaches think their input could effect that change. If ASA is committed (as part of the aforementioned bond issue) to keeping the tournament in OKC, say that, and solicit those comments that would improve the experience in OKC. ASA also hasn't done a good job of overseeing and monitoring the Qualifying process; non-championship fields used (some with no fences one year, some with 170' fences another year), changing entry rules on the fly, not attempting to spread the calendar to give teams the most opportunities, etc. The non-Cal coaches that I know feel like they have been ignored; they are told they are the elite program, but treated like they have no real input.

And, trust me, I know quite a few Gold coaches; not just in Georgia. I am the webmaster of a Georgia messageboard, and work a lot of Gold events during the year. As an ASA council member, I see some of the roadblocks and problems with attempting to placate the group that is unhappy; I also am reminded that ASA is a service industry, and that our customer isn't happy.

I think we oversimplify the issue, and lead those that are also monitoring our board (now that a link was placed on heybucket) to think "the umpires just don't get it" if we say it is just Cali coaches wanting their way.

And, for all I know, I may be in trouble for posting this. But, it is what I see.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Tom, I think you are missing the biggest bullet points; the ones that have the teams outside California most upset.

Their most legitimate complaint is the length of the tournament, and the amount of time needed to play a 64 team tournament.

Steve, I think this issue is more than XX number of days. Like I stated previously, the 2002 Gold was played on an 8 field complex. The games began on Monday and finished on Sunday. A "savings" of two days, and I think the number of teams was less than 64 (52 or 53 I believe). No one complained about the location, which was rural OK, or length of the tournament. And at that time, the top pitcher eligible to play was not there, she was playing for the US team. Want to venture a guess who won that year?

What has changed since 2002? More teams playing Gold, and way more showcases. The culture is now to show up on Tuesday, play for fun on Wed/Thurs/Friday, then single elimination on Sat/Sun. And they go to one every week, so who really has time for a tournament that really means something?

I guess it isn't too difficult to figure out what side of the argument I'm on. Nationals used to be the end all of the summer. Now it is just an annoyance.

[AtlUmpSteve]

I did it in 2001 & 2004; 64 (I think 2004 was the 65 team year) teams, 8 fields in Marietta, GA. The first day was just sign-in, opening ceremonies, an exhibition game.

Totally wasted day, and the rest of the tournament was really drawn out.

The math is 64 pool games; 8 rounds of 8 games. Coach luncheon and draw (if not done in advance), check-in, opening ceremonies, play two rounds opening night. Play 6 rounds day 2, draw that night (if pool used for seeding), team parties that night.

Day three, play 6 rounds of elimination bracket (no one sent home, 9, 11, 1, 4, 6, 8). Day 4, play 7 rounds of elimination (9, 11, 1, 3, 5, 7, 9). There would be 8 winners, 8 losers left; day 5, finish the tournament.

It could Tuesday thru Saturday, with Sunday as a rain day and travel day. I believe that is the Premier plan, more or less.

[Dakota]

The length of the tournament could be a legitimate beef, except if you notice what is being emphasized is high school players only, location, and college coaches in attendance.

It is at its core a showcase tournament being put on for the convenience of the socal teams, with window dressing to draw in teams from outside socal.

There is no doubt in my mind that ASA handled the long-standing coach's complaints poorly. If, in fact, they merely took suggestions and provided little or no feedback (as you suggest), that is worse than not taking suggestions at all, since it can easily be taken as deceptive.

I'm completely out of the loop on the internal workings of the ASA, but it has been clear even to me that ASA was viewing OKC as the permanant home of the 18U Gold tournament. I still think that is the crux of the issue for the socal teams; they feel they are not being paid their due homage. They'd be perfectly happy if ASA's HQ and therefore the permanent home was in Barstow and you'd hear nary a peep about the hot weather or lack of activities.

[wadeintothem]

Some dead on balls assessments by Tom and Steve right there..