The Game

[IRISHMAFIA]

From the movie trailer thread:

Originally Posted by Bill S

Have been involved with slow-pitch at a very high level over many decades.
The game has degenerated to something I am almost ashamed of at the upper levels.
Lower levels still have some credibility of sportsmanship and class.

I disagree as it refers to umpiring, at least, as far as ASA is concerned.

Had a discussion with a fellow umpire yesterday involving the childishness of the lower levels of play. He has worked the Men's A, C & D Nationals in SP and 18U in FP. He stated, and I agree, that he could combine all the whining, complaining and general negative comments made to him as an umpire at all of these tournaments and it would not come close to what we hear in a day at our SP state tournaments and I'm talking D & E, period!

Maybe it is the midatlantic area, but there are too many wannabe players. When it comes to competition, they go as low as they can find someone to accept them. But put them in a bar, on a message board or talking to a female, and you would think they are All-World Superstars about to sign a contract for a reality show with ESPN.

Out on the field, TDs are nothing, but thieves making thousands stealing their money and umpires are egotistical maniacs that make calls and allow teams to cheat just to piss off the players.

Yes, there are head cases everywhere, but those at the upper levels at least know the priorities when it comes to playing the game and take care of business on the field instead of trying to find someone to blame for their inadequacies (sp?).

[KJUmp]

Well put Irish. And I agree particuarly with the last sentence of your post. The guys in the upper divisions IMO at both the staTe and local level do know how to take care of business between the lines. To that end, I'd be curious as to, like me, if the majority of adult league EJ's for other umps this season have been in the lower levels...C & D.

[NCASAUmp]

Hey, what's with the Mid-Atlantic reference, Mike? I run a tight ship here, and I don't put up with any bullsh1t on my field!

Speaking as someone who only calls slow pitch, I have to say that the attitudes of the players has been in steady decline for the past few years. Bat doctoring has seen a huge explosion in what used to be a cottage industry. Players are more frequently getting ejected for poor behavior, and I think some of the local leagues are letting them get away with it.

Maybe it's the fact that we have so many different associations that players think that if they don't like how one is run, they can just take their business elsewhere: U-Trip, NSA, ISA, etc. This isn't the fault of the other associations, per se, but rather a byproduct of the mere existence of options. You see it in other areas of life, too: if someone doesn't like one small behavior of one company, they threaten to go to the competition. And when you have one organization that seems to let anything go (no names, please), it creates a huge vacuum effect.

For the record, I'm not suggesting that ASA loosen up their restrictions. Not at all. I think that in terms of expectations (rules, approved equipment, etc.), they're either where they should be (establishing a 98 MPH standard for bats), or they're well on their way (.52 COR/275 lb standard for softballs).

But back to the subject at hand...

It is getting increasingly worse. We've got guys on the juice in our area, all for the sake of winning a slow pitch league championship t-shirt. We've got guys who think they can get away with bringing doctored bats to C-league games, and their attitude is, "if you don't like it, don't play here." Go to softballfans.com, and watch the forums there. The attitudes and behavior are disgusting. I throw my 2 cents in every now and then when someone asks a rule question, but I'm careful in what I tell them. I won't delude myself into thinking that I'm somehow "reaching these guys." They're grown men (at least as far as age is concerned), and no one is going to tell them what to do.

The upper level leagues will squawk just as much, but at least they know when they're reaching an umpire's line in the sand. The lower level league guys just keep going...

[argodad]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Hey, what's with the Mid-Atlantic reference, Mike? I run a tight ship here, and I don't put up with any bullsh1t on my field!

Speaking as someone who only calls slow pitch, I have to say that the attitudes of the players has been in steady decline for the past few years. Bat doctoring has seen a huge explosion in what used to be a cottage industry. Players are more frequently getting ejected for poor behavior, and I think some of the local leagues are letting them get away with it.

Maybe it's the fact that we have so many different associations that players think that if they don't like how one is run, they can just take their business elsewhere: U-Trip, NSA, ISA, etc. This isn't the fault of the other associations, per se, but rather a byproduct of the mere existence of options. You see it in other areas of life, too: if someone doesn't like one small behavior of one company, they threaten to go to the competition. And when you have one organization that seems to let anything go (no names, please), it creates a huge vacuum effect.

For the record, I'm not suggesting that ASA loosen up their restrictions. Not at all. I think that in terms of expectations (rules, approved equipment, etc.), they're either where they should be (establishing a 98 MPH standard for bats), or they're well on their way (.52 COR/275 lb standard for softballs).

But back to the subject at hand...

It is getting increasingly worse. We've got guys on the juice in our area, all for the sake of winning a slow pitch league championship t-shirt. We've got guys who think they can get away with bringing doctored bats to C-league games, and their attitude is, "if you don't like it, don't play here." Go to softballfans.com, and watch the forums there. The attitudes and behavior are disgusting. I throw my 2 cents in every now and then when someone asks a rule question, but I'm careful in what I tell them. I won't delude myself into thinking that I'm somehow "reaching these guys." They're grown men (at least as far as age is concerned), and no one is going to tell them what to do.

The upper level leagues will squawk just as much, but at least they know when they're reaching an umpire's line in the sand. The lower level league guys just keep going...

You guys are making the case for those of us who concentrate on FP.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by argodad

You guys are making the case for those of us who concentrate on FP.

Feel free. More SP games for me.

Or not, but that's another story that I'd rather not go into here.

[Stripes33]

As an 9th year umpire that has done SP in three different sanctioning bodies (USSSA, ASA, & NSA) I agree the game has changed. Not only have the players changed but I think most of the problems stem from the League Adminstrators allowing these grown up children to act the way they do. I've always thought the weaker the guy is that runs the league the worse the behaviour. Just my 2 cents!

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Stripes33

As an 9th year umpire that has done SP in three different sanctioning bodies (USSSA, ASA, & NSA) I agree the game has changed. Not only have the players changed but I think most of the problems stem from the League Adminstrators allowing these grown up children to act the way they do. I've always thought the weaker the guy is that runs the league the worse the behaviour. Just my 2 cents!

This is definitely the heart of the matter. There's one league where I will only call games if my assignor is truly in a bind. The administrator there is absolutely weak, and the players are running things into the ground. There's no leadership, and our authority on the field is completely undermined by this administrator's limp-wristed backing of our calls. These guys are a liability waiting to happen.

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

From the movie trailer thread:



I disagree as it refers to umpiring, at least, as far as ASA is concerned.

Had a discussion with a fellow umpire yesterday involving the childishness of the lower levels of play. He has worked the Men's A, C & D Nationals in SP and 18U in FP. He stated, and I agree, that he could combine all the whining, complaining and general negative comments made to him as an umpire at all of these tournaments and it would not come close to what we hear in a day at our SP state tournaments and I'm talking D & E, period!

Maybe it is the midatlantic area, but there are too many wannabe players. When it comes to competition, they go as low as they can find someone to accept them. But put them in a bar, on a message board or talking to a female, and you would think they are All-World Superstars about to sign a contract for a reality show with ESPN.

Out on the field, TDs are nothing, but thieves making thousands stealing their money and umpires are egotistical maniacs that make calls and allow teams to cheat just to piss off the players.

Yes, there are head cases everywhere, but those at the upper levels at least know the priorities when it comes to playing the game and take care of business on the field instead of trying to find someone to blame for their inadequacies (sp?).

From my limited experience of umping rec SP levels A-D, the lower level players definitely whine and exhibit poorer sportsmanship a whole lot more than the upper level players. IMO its too many players who think they are good, and when they cant make the above average difficulty play, they blame the ump(s).

ie, sinker liner to the OF, the OF catches the ball on the short hop, but complains that they caught it on the fly, or groundball to SS, who kicks it initially, but recovers to throw to 1st, but not in time to retire the runner, and complains the runner was out, and its like if you just fielded the ball cleanly you wouldnt even be in this situation.

in the upper levels, players tend to police themselves, ie runner on 1st, gb to 3B, throw barely beats the runner at 2nd, the runner, many times, will just walk off the field even before the ump makes their out call. or on a pitch middle in, no one hits it up the middle.

maybe its bc the upper level leagues are smaller and the players are more familiar with one another, maybe its bc they dont want to win cheaply, maybe its bc i cant stand umping 2 sh*tty teams, but I dred having to ump a D level SP game.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by Fozzie

I have spent the last two weekends in Nebraska and have had the privilege of calling a couple of slowpitch state championships tournaments in my former home state.
The first was was an E tournament with over 70 teams and I found the teams very respectful and well behaved in general. I just returned from the church, 35 and over and the 45 and over. The 35 and over might be the best slowpitch softball in Nebraska IMHO. And those guys were A$$s.
So I guess I tend to disagree that the lower levels are the worst behaved. At least that has been my past and most recent experiences.

Game management. You are an ***, bye bye. Others stop being asses.

Just came back from ISSA Worlds. Championship game of over 40 majors. Team says one or two things I can hear sitting by dugout about height. Then one barks about it. Ump says time. Fellows there will be no arguing about balls and strikes. Situation resolved. Nothing out of the players. He did the same thing, I am told and he told me, at the firecracker when a coach barked about the first pitch of a game.

When the players or coaches are out of line, exhibiting inpappropriate behaviour, you gotta step up.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by Fozzie

Ronald,

I posted nothing about game management in my post. Or how I handled any players or coaches. Yet you feel the need to call me names and dismiss me. Nice.

I did get the priviledge of working the plate in the championship games this past couple of weekends so I guess the people who know me and watch me umpire see something they like.

Fozzie ,Is there a chance you misread his post ?

Thought his arse and bye, bye comments were in reference to the idiot players and not you.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Fozzie ,Is there a chance you misread his post ?

Thought his arse and bye, bye comments were in reference to the idiot players and not you.

I'll second that. Guess it's like interpreting the rule book - some go over board, some are water under the bridge.

[Fozzie]

I did misread it. So I axed my post. Sorry

[ronald]

Fozzie,

Sorry for the miscommunication. Wife tells me I always do it. So does the speller.

I was trying to point out the importance of game management for all umpires. There are many aspects to it (when, what to do say, what type of coach or player you have, etc) and one that is certainly more difficult for some to do. When you see someone do it and how it keeps the game flowing and people focused on playing the game, you gain an appreciation and understanding of its "magic".

I think many have seen some umpires do nothing and how it detracts from the game and/or lets in usc, abusive language, what have you. That is no fun for the other players, any fans or the ump. But it falls on the ump almost always to rein it in.

Two strategies or techniques that I learned this year and have used:

riot voice

voice of reason

They actually both got used today.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ronald

Just came back from ISSA Worlds. Championship game of over 40 majors. Team says one or two things I can hear sitting by dugout about height. Then one barks about it. Ump says time. Fellows there will be no arguing about balls and strikes. Situation resolved. Nothing out of the players. He did the same thing, I am told and he told me, at the firecracker when a coach barked about the first pitch of a game.

When the players or coaches are out of line, exhibiting inpappropriate behaviour, you gotta step up.

I understand a few members of Team USA played at the 35+ level of this tournament.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I understand a few members of Team USA played at the 35+ level of this tournament.

Yes they did. I caught the tail end of one of there games. They lost. Only recognized one player, Rusty Bam... They came back and won the championship game (other team decided play for all the marbles with no if game). Score 56-44. Other team was up by 17 at one point. A long game. Glad I did not do it. 22 bucks for 3 hours. We were short umps, so most were doing 7 or eight games either in a row or with a one game break on Saturday in the sun.