Ball contacts runner, defense shorthanded

[NCASAUmp]

How would you rule on this?

No outs, R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. Defense is playing shorthanded (no F3), and F4 is playing behind 2B, expecting a pulled hit. B3 hits a sharp grounder towards where F3 generally would have been, striking R2 in the leg. R2 was trying to avoid the ball. F4 was nowhere near the ball, no other fielder had a chance to make any outs. All runners advance only one base.

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

How would you rule on this?

No outs, R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. Defense is playing shorthanded (no F3), and F4 is playing behind 2B, expecting a pulled hit. B3 hits a sharp grounder towards where F3 generally would have been, striking R2 in the leg. R2 was trying to avoid the ball. F4 was nowhere near the ball, no other fielder had a chance to make any outs. All runners advance only one base.

Just out of curiosity, who was covering 1st normally, the pitcher, or did F4 normally play in the 3.5 hole and cover?


8-7-k

When a runner is struck with a fair untouched batted ball while not in contact with a base and before it passes another infielder excluding the pitcher, or if it passes an infielder and another fielder has an opportunity to make an out.

But I believe the intent of the rule was written as though a fielder must be there to have an opp. to make a play.

By letter of the rule, I guess one could make a strong case for an out sense the ball never passed an IFer, but going by intent, Id rule nothing.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

Just out of curiosity, who was covering 1st normally, the pitcher, or did F4 normally play in the 3.5 hole and cover

Honestly, this didn't actually happen, but it ALMOST did in one of my games a while back. Got me thinking.

[NCASAUmp]

To more specifically answer your question, no one was covering 1B. They were more concerned with getting the lead runners and minimize the other team's scoring.

[Skahtboi]

This is SP, right? So...why didn't they just pull one of their outfielders to play in the F3 spot?

[azgreg]

I have nothing, the ball did not pass another infielder or another fielder who an opportunity to make an out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

ASA 8.7 THE RUNNER IS OUT

K. When a runner is struck with a fair untouched batted ball while not in contact with a base and before is passes another infielder excluding the pitcher, or it passes an infielder and another fielder has an opportunity to make an out.
EFFECT: The ball is dead and the runner is out. All other runners must return to the last base legally touched at the time of the interference.

Did the ball pass an infielderer? I know you are trying to apply common sense here. However, assuming R2 was not in contact with the base, the rules do not allow any call other than "out" on the given play.

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA 8.7 THE RUNNER IS OUT

K. When a runner is struck with a fair untouched batted ball while not in contact with a base and before is passes another infielder excluding the pitcher, or it passes an infielder and another fielder has an opportunity to make an out.
EFFECT: The ball is dead and the runner is out. All other runners must return to the last base legally touched at the time of the interference.

Did the ball pass an infielderer? I know you are trying to apply common sense here. However, assuming R2 was not in contact with the base, the rules do not allow any call other than "out" on the given play.

But you can see that theres a qualifying statement in the last part of the rule "nother fielder has an opportunity to make an out". I wasnt there when the rules were written, but it doesnt take a giant leap in reasoning to believe this sentiment is also applicable in the first part of the rule "before is passes another infielder". Lets face it, the ASA rules arent the most well written document, and I dont think the rules ppl foresaw a team playing without a 1B.

That being said, technically its an out, but thats like a cop giving someone a jaywalking ticket when they walk 1' out of the crosswalk, yes they were out of the crosswalk but they were still in walking "in" the designated area.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

But you can see that theres a qualifying statement in the last part of the rule "nother fielder has an opportunity to make an out". I wasnt there when the rules were written, but it doesnt take a giant leap in reasoning to believe this sentiment is also applicable in the first part of the rule "before is passes another infielder". Lets face it, the ASA rules arent the most well written document, and I dont think the rules ppl foresaw a team playing without a 1B.

That being said, technically its an out, but thats like a cop giving someone a jaywalking ticket when they walk 1' out of the crosswalk, yes they were out of the crosswalk but they were still in walking "in" the designated area.

Let's take this example to a more likely (non-shorthanded) scenario, and say F3 is shifted to where F4 normally would play, with F4 playing behind second. Would you not have an out if R1 is two steps off first when struck by a batted ball? Absolutely. The ball had not passed an infielder, made contact with a runner while not in contact with the base.

"Opportunity to make an out" is not a requirement for this part of the rule. This only comes into play IF the ball passes an infielder.

To better use your crosswalk analogy: no crosswalk was painted at the street corner, but the pedestrian crossed in the middle of the street. Still breaking the law.

[MrRabbit]

ASA 8.7 THE RUNNER IS OUT

K. When a runner is struck with a fair untouched batted ball while not in contact with a base and before is passes another infielder excluding the pitcher, or it passes an infielder and another fielder has an opportunity to make an out.
EFFECT: The ball is dead and the runner is out. All other runners must return to the last base legally touched at the time of the interference.

Did the ball pass an infielderer? I know you are trying to apply common sense here. However, assuming R2 was not in contact with the base, the rules do not allow any call other than "out" on the given play.


I am not calling an out because of a DMD... "Dumb Move Defense" You show up short handed leaving position without a player and want me to call an out, I don't think so. For the rule to work you must have a player in the position. NO freebies.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MrRabbit

I am not calling an out because of a DMD... "Dumb Move Defense" You show up short handed leaving position without a player and want me to call an out, I don't think so. For the rule to work you must have a player in the position. NO freebies.

If there is any dumb move, how about a runner getting hit by a ball batted by a team mate while there is no defensive presence or pressure?

For as much as we know, the team is shorthanded because one of their players was tripped with a fake tag going into 2B and could not continue .

Sorry, Bubba, but you lose the protest.

[Tru_in_Blu]

The defense can play all their players on the left side of the infield/outfield if they want, and if a batted ball contacts a runner from 1B who is not in contact with a base, it's a dead ball and the runner is out.

Can't polish that turd any other way.

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

This is SP, right? So...why didn't they just pull one of their outfielders to play in the F3 spot?

Drunk team involved?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

The defense can play all their players on the left side of the infield/outfield if they want, and if a batted ball contacts a runner from 1B who is not in contact with a base, it's a dead ball and the runner is out.

Can't polish that turd any other way.

And this is exactly how I would rule. If ASA had meant for us to call the runner safe in this sitch, they would have provided us with a clear exception to the rule. Since they didn't, we can only rule one way: out.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA 8.7 THE RUNNER IS OUT

K. When a runner is struck with a fair untouched batted ball while not in contact with a base and before is passes another infielder excluding the pitcher, or it passes an infielder and another fielder has an opportunity to make an out.
EFFECT: The ball is dead and the runner is out. All other runners must return to the last base legally touched at the time of the interference.

Did the ball pass an infielderer? I know you are trying to apply common sense here. However, assuming R2 was not in contact with the base, the rules do not allow any call other than "out" on the given play.

How silly of you to actually try to apply the rule to the situation...