Umpire rule knowledge is down this year

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by vcblue

My biggest problem this year has been working with umpires at the 16A and 18A/Gold level that don't understand higher level rules. That type of rules when you are new you go, "Wow, I didn't know that" or rules that you don't typically see (if you only do ASA) until Championship play such as substitutions and DP/Flex.

The DP / Flex rule is the same regardless of level in ASA and I find it a little odd you only see it in championship play.

[SRW]

Up here in airport code SEA, we give the test twice - once to only first and second year umpires, and again to the veterans. Both are open book, open note, open neighbor. If you're able to talk to partners on the field, why not on the test? Testing how someone takes a test isn't the goal here. We are testing how well they know the rules, and how well they can refer to the book and find it.

And yes, even with this method, we managed to have a few people fail the test (less than 70%). When that happens, they know which questions they missed, so we make them go back and write every rule reference to every question (even the ones they got right) and turn it back in for grading.

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by SRW

Up here in airport code SEA, we give the test twice - once to only first and second year umpires, and again to the veterans. Both are open book, open note, open neighbor. If you're able to talk to partners on the field, why not on the test? Testing how someone takes a test isn't the goal here. We are testing how well they know the rules, and how well they can refer to the book and find it.

And yes, even with this method, we managed to have a few people fail the test (less than 70%). When that happens, they know which questions they missed, so we make them go back and write every rule reference to every question (even the ones they got right) and turn it back in for grading.

So many things wrong with that philosophy.

A test is a way to evaluate an individuals knowledge of the subject matter. An open book, open neighbor.... test would be fine if being able to look at a rule book or phone a knowledgeable ump during the game were permissible.

So what happens if 5 umpires meet to take the test, and 4 dont know the answer to a few questions but the 5th does, he says the answer is ....... so the other 4 umps just right down ........Now 2 of the 4 that didnt know the answer are umping a game, the same situation occurs, only this time the 5th ump who knows the rule isnt there to instruct them.

"Testing how someone takes a test isn't the goal here" might be the biggest pet peeve of mine whether talking about umpire or schooling or whatever. Dont use the excuse, "im not a good test taker" either you know the subject matter, or you dont. Its not like theyre asking you to take the test while you are fighting off raging lions. Im assuming one would be given a quite test taking environment where there are minimal distractions.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

So many things wrong with that philosophy.

A test is a way to evaluate an individuals knowledge of the subject matter. An open book, open neighbor.... test would be fine if being able to look at a rule book or phone a knowledgeable ump during the game were permissible.

So what happens if 5 umpires meet to take the test, and 4 dont know the answer to a few questions but the 5th does, he says the answer is ....... so the other 4 umps just right down ........Now 2 of the 4 that didnt know the answer are umping a game, the same situation occurs, only this time the 5th ump who knows the rule isnt there to instruct them.

"Testing how someone takes a test isn't the goal here" might be the biggest pet peeve of mine whether talking about umpire or schooling or whatever. Dont use the excuse, "im not a good test taker" either you know the subject matter, or you dont. Its not like theyre asking you to take the test while you are fighting off raging lions. Im assuming one would be given a quite test taking environment where there are minimal distractions.

Steve, I have not met you or worked with you. But I have worked with some who are of your same mindset.

You see, when you are on the field you should be working as a team. Same with the way we do the test. Sure, sometimes they eff it up, same as we sometimes do on the field. You know what happens when they eff it up? They all miss it, and then they all talk about it, how they missed it, etc. But they work together to do it.

We have a lot of umpires who think they are on an island. Guess what? You're not -- unless you are working one-umpire mechanics. The concept of teamwork is a good one, whether it is taking the test or umpiring a game.

Oh...it's not just the five umpires meeting to take the test. We have dozens meeting to take the test on veterans test night. If someone(s) can't find the answer, and they ask, we will guide them in the right direction, but it is still up to them to find the right answer...or to find the wrong answer and be gently led to the right answer later on.

As for taking the test, you need to get out from under the rock and realize that people have different learning styles, and perform differently when taking a test. Your last paragraph reminds me of the teachers my youngest daughter had during her first nine years of school. They had her pigeonholed in so many ways. Today, just three weeks after her 25th birthday, she called us to let us know her bonus for 2Q 2009 was $9,000. Sometimes learning the subject matter requires a different method. All we are doing by proscribing other learning methods is excluding those who could be umpiring with us...and could be good or even great umpires.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

Steve, I have not met you or worked with you. But I have worked with some who are of your same mindset.

You see, when you are on the field you should be working as a team. Same with the way we do the test. Sure, sometimes they eff it up, same as we sometimes do on the field. You know what happens when they eff it up? They all miss it, and then they all talk about it, how they missed it, etc. But they work together to do it.

We have a lot of umpires who think they are on an island. Guess what? You're not -- unless you are working one-umpire mechanics. The concept of teamwork is a good one, whether it is taking the test or umpiring a game.

Oh...it's not just the five umpires meeting to take the test. We have dozens meeting to take the test on veterans test night. If someone(s) can't find the answer, and they ask, we will guide them in the right direction, but it is still up to them to find the right answer...or to find the wrong answer and be gently led to the right answer later on.

As for taking the test, you need to get out from under the rock and realize that people have different learning styles, and perform differently when taking a test. Your last paragraph reminds me of the teachers my youngest daughter had during her first nine years of school. They had her pigeonholed in so many ways. Today, just three weeks after her 25th birthday, she called us to let us know her bonus for 2Q 2009 was $9,000. Sometimes learning the subject matter requires a different method. All we are doing by proscribing other learning methods is excluding those who could be umpiring with us...and could be good or even great umpires.

Oh yeah?!?! Well, I bet you they don't do it that way in baseba.............and, and, and......er......they get more money, too!

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

Steve, I have not met you or worked with you. But I have worked with some who are of your same mindset.

You see, when you are on the field you should be working as a team. Same with the way we do the test. Sure, sometimes they eff it up, same as we sometimes do on the field. You know what happens when they eff it up? They all miss it, and then they all talk about it, how they missed it, etc. But they work together to do it.

We have a lot of umpires who think they are on an island. Guess what? You're not -- unless you are working one-umpire mechanics. The concept of teamwork is a good one, whether it is taking the test or umpiring a game.

Oh...it's not just the five umpires meeting to take the test. We have dozens meeting to take the test on veterans test night. If someone(s) can't find the answer, and they ask, we will guide them in the right direction, but it is still up to them to find the right answer...or to find the wrong answer and be gently led to the right answer later on.

As for taking the test, you need to get out from under the rock and realize that people have different learning styles, and perform differently when taking a test. Your last paragraph reminds me of the teachers my youngest daughter had during her first nine years of school. They had her pigeonholed in so many ways. Today, just three weeks after her 25th birthday, she called us to let us know her bonus for 2Q 2009 was $9,000. Sometimes learning the subject matter requires a different method. All we are doing by proscribing other learning methods is excluding those who could be umpiring with us...and could be good or even great umpires.

Well said, John. Well said.

Is your daughter buying you lunch, by the way? I think she owes her good pops some lunch...

[vcblue]

Sorry guys but Steve is right. I know we are a team on the field and that we support each other and discuss the play after the game to improve ourself and our partners. I just believe we should have a thorough knowledge of the rule when we walk onto the field, and the current method (IMHO) does not provide new umpires the same benefits that were provided to me when I started umpiring ASA. I already had 9 years of umpiring experience before I took a nine year break. when I came back 9 years ago ASA was/is the rule set all local Rec leagues were/are using. The first two years the test was closed book. I missed 20 questions. Then I had to take my test find the right answers and quote the rule. This is what got me in the book. Fast forward to this year... 30 Umpires meet a Denny's. 15 were new and most of them wrote in the answers as they were given.

Time to go bake to closed book test.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by vcblue

Sorry guys but Steve is right. I know we are a team on the field and that we support each other and discuss the play after the game to improve ourself and our partners. I just believe we should have a thorough knowledge of the rule when we walk onto the field, and the current method (IMHO) does not provide new umpires the same benefits that were provided to me when I started umpiring ASA. I already had 9 years of umpiring experience before I took a nine year break. when I came back 9 years ago ASA was/is the rule set all local Rec leagues were/are using. The first two years the test was closed book. I missed 20 questions. Then I had to take my test find the right answers and quote the rule. This is what got me in the book. Fast forward to this year... 30 Umpires meet a Denny's. 15 were new and most of them wrote in the answers as they were given.

Time to go bake to closed book test.

Sorry Ron, but I will have take exception to this as well. I have held one of those meetings where everyone gets together to discuss the test for years, and one of my requirements when I send out the email is to bring a completed test with you when you attend. The point is for several of us to get together to discuss, argue and dissect the rules/questions that cause the most problems. Ergo, we all walk away from this meeting with a better understanding of the rules, and hopefully as better umpires. Just like any other tool, open book testing and meetings to discuss the tests can be abused, but when used properly help many of us learn and grow. Largely, this falls first to the individual, to have the integrity to want to grow as an umpire, and next to the administrator of the test or the chair of the meeting. There will always be cheats, and whether you allow open book testing or not is not going to get rid of them.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by vcblue

Sorry guys but Steve is right.

Sorry, vcblue, but you are wrong. There is no one right answer that fits all.

You may have an opinion which you think is better, but neither is right or wrong. That's why there's vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, and swirl.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by vcblue

Sorry guys but Steve is right. I know we are a team on the field and that we support each other and discuss the play after the game to improve ourself and our partners. I just believe we should have a thorough knowledge of the rule when we walk onto the field, and the current method (IMHO) does not provide new umpires the same benefits that were provided to me when I started umpiring ASA. I already had 9 years of umpiring experience before I took a nine year break. when I came back 9 years ago ASA was/is the rule set all local Rec leagues were/are using. The first two years the test was closed book. I missed 20 questions. Then I had to take my test find the right answers and quote the rule. This is what got me in the book. Fast forward to this year... 30 Umpires meet a Denny's. 15 were new and most of them wrote in the answers as they were given.

Time to go bake to closed book test.

I disagree with you and he.

Now I wouldnt say I am MTR/AltUmpSteve level of rules knowledge, but I'd pit my rules knowledge up against anyone and at least hold my own.. and I've always taken a open book test.

The test can be used as a tool of learning. I have no problem with the associations that choose that approach as opposed to a "dmv driving" type test. It can be a fine learning tool as can group discussions about the exam, this message board, and other mechanisms other than a standardized closed book exam.

Learning rules is on the umpire... Test or no test.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by vcblue

....Fast forward to this year... 30 Umpires meet a Denny's. 15 were new and most of them wrote in the answers as they were given...

Sounds like a local problem to me.

Originally Posted by vcblue

30 Umpires meet a Denny's. 15 were new and most of them wrote in the answers as they were given.

And those answers came out of the menu?

[3SPORT]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

The DP / Flex rule is the same regardless of level in ASA and I find it a little odd you only see it in championship play.

Possibly he is talking about that someone actually utilizes the DP/Flex rule. Most coaches do not know how to effectively use it, so they just put in a DP/Flex and use it as a way to get in more players, instead of a strategic part of the game.