Australia vs. USA

[topper]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What about them? What about those who cannot work certain games, levels or classes due to family and career commitments, but can do the occasional weeknight and weekend tournaments? Are they any less an umpire than those to whom you refer?

Not at all.

Couldn't tell you and you don't know, either. Neither of us would without personal observation. That is unless you are insinuating that those who work college ball are better merely because they get a college schedule. I think you are smarter than that.

I have made personal observations and have evaluated many prospective college officials that have chosen a different path than ASA. That was not my point however. My post was in response to ronald's expectation that elite/ISF umpires would be better college umpires than others. Believe me, I run across plenty poor collegiate officials as I'm sure you do as well. Incidentally, some of those are elite/ISF, some are not. Titles, certifications, and even NCAA post-season experience mean very little when the ball is in play.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by topper

Not at all.



I have made personal observations and have evaluated many prospective college officials that have chosen a different path than ASA. That was not my point however. My post was in response to ronald's expectation that elite/ISF umpires would be better college umpires than others. Believe me, I run across plenty poor collegiate officials as I'm sure you do as well. Incidentally, some of those are elite/ISF, some are not. Titles, certifications, and even NCAA post-season experience mean very little when the ball is in play.

That expectation is subject to change as I gather more info and see more umps.

[outathm]

I was not trying to downgrade anyone's accomplishments on or off the field. I do know that there are a lot of fine umpires who do not have the 'credentials' that are what some are looking for ie. Elite, multiple ASA nationals etc.

I too have worked with bad NCAA umpires. I have also worked with bad ASA umpires. No organization has a monopoly on good or bad umpires and to expect something from someone because of the initials behind their name is a mistake.

[kcg NC2Ablu]

Originally Posted by outathm

I was not trying to downgrade anyone's accomplishments on or off the field. I do know that there are a lot of fine umpires who do not have the 'credentials' that are what some are looking for ie. Elite, multiple ASA nationals etc.

I too have worked with bad NCAA umpires. I have also worked with bad ASA umpires. No organization has a monopoly on good or bad umpires and to expect something from someone because of the initials behind their name is a mistake.

ratified

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by outathm

I was not trying to downgrade anyone's accomplishments on or off the field. I do know that there are a lot of fine umpires who do not have the 'credentials' that are what some are looking for ie. Elite, multiple ASA nationals etc.

I too have worked with bad NCAA umpires. I have also worked with bad ASA umpires. No organization has a monopoly on good or bad umpires and to expect something from someone because of the initials behind their name is a mistake.

Absolutely no argument there, but now a question. If someone was qualified for a certain level, why not take the step?

Who knows where or what it will get you.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Absolutely no argument there, but now a question. If someone was qualified for a certain level, why not take the step?

Who knows where or what it will get you.

The reasons can be numerous. This year I got the invite to do college ball. I have my first training tournament right after Nationals.
The travel-so now I have to be prepared to travel 6 hours roundtrip. Being the new guy I've been told to expect to have that trip several times this year.
Next month I have to travel and spend the weekend in a desolated Central Valley town doing a tourney. I'm not that excited about that trip and weekend away from home.
I also have some concerns about college ball being run by the coaches. I'm not exactly sure what that means in real time but I'm not the most coach friendly guy in the world. So that may be an issue.
Also the college assignor and I have had our moments. It was over an ejection at a National he was UIC for blah,blah,blah. I stood my ground but there was consequences. I'm not in his fraternity and I'm not one of his good ole boys...he actually caught me off guard when he asked me to do college ball. I heard there was pressure on him to get a little younger, and I guess I qualify as a little younger.....

So traveling, not wanting to deal with the college caoches, and not willing to suck up are three reasons off the top of my head I can come up with.

Having said all that I am going to try it this year with an open minded attitude. If it works out great,if not back to HS and my weekends of ASA ball.

[topper]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

... If someone was qualified for a certain level, why not take the step?

Who knows where or what it will get you.

I hate to hijack a hijacked thread, and will probably wish I hadn't, but for some it comes down to this: Lower pay than weekend round robins, no travel, no hotel. Before everyone starts, it's not all about the money; it's about the mentality of some in ASA that you should be compensated less than usual to provide a service to a certain customer because it's an honor to do so. IMO, an umpire should not be any more honored to work a game than the participants are to have him/her work their game.

[wadeintothem]

Personnally, I dont think the above discussed umpire is missed at nats. Thats a fair opinion to have and cya when I get back to the leagues. But please, dont torture me with your (no one in specific) sour grapes about your opinion.

[topper]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Personnally, I dont think the above discussed umpire is missed at nats.

Probably not. Like-mindedness is more important than substance to some.

Thats a fair opinion to have and cya when I get back to the leagues.

Not sure what the cya part means. Please explain.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by topper

Lower pay than weekend round robins, no travel, no hotel. Before everyone starts, it's not all about the money; it's about the mentality of some in ASA that you should be compensated less than usual to provide a service to a certain customer because it's an honor to do so. IMO, an umpire should not be any more honored to work a game than the participants are to have him/her work their game.

Well, it sure sounds like some of it is about the money.

I have never seen a traveling umpire not have a hotel room at a national. And to address Steve's issue before he jumps in, there can be issues with what the host determines to be a "traveling" umpire and, unfortunately, this is part of where the umpires run into conflict with the commissioners.

I agree that the minimum pay rate is too low, but it will never be able to compete with local tournaments as the expenses are enormously greater at the national.

This is a shortcoming of the council. Over the past six years, every time someone talks about money, the first target that falls into their sights is the umpire. National tournaments are no longer an "honor" for the host (as it is the umpire), but they are actually looking to make money. Over the past 5-6 years, they have cut many tournament games from 3-umpire to 2-umpire games TO SAVE MONEY. They have increased the allowance for the number of hosts umpires TO SAVE MONEY. However, many, if not most, national tournaments pay umpires higher than the minimum.

OTOH, I have been able to work some great games and tournaments because I chose to take the steps to get there. There is no doubt that I got the right tournaments which put me on the path, but I busted my hump to get to the level of being qualified and available for those tournaments. And, yes, I did have to pay for ONE weeklong clinic. But I have never come home with less money than I left.

Obviously, it is up to each umpire as we all have reasons for certain commitments or not. Some just do not have access to the path needed to be taken and that just isn't right. OTOH, if you just don't work certain games because you think "I'm never going anywhere", how would anyone know you would evenly remotely interested in moving up?

Oh, well, to each their own, just curious.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Well, it sure sounds like some of it is about the money.

I have never seen a traveling umpire not have a hotel room at a national. And to address Steve's issue before he jumps in, there can be issues with what the host determines to be a "traveling" umpire and, unfortunately, this is part of where the umpires run into conflict with the commissioners.

I agree that the minimum pay rate is too low, but it will never be able to compete with local tournaments as the expenses are enormously greater at the national.

This is a shortcoming of the council. Over the past six years, every time someone talks about money, the first target that falls into their sights is the umpire. National tournaments are no longer an "honor" for the host (as it is the umpire), but they are actually looking to make money. Over the past 5-6 years, they have cut many tournament games from 3-umpire to 2-umpire games TO SAVE MONEY. They have increased the allowance for the number of hosts umpires TO SAVE MONEY. However, many, if not most, national tournaments pay umpires higher than the minimum.

OTOH, I have been able to work some great games and tournaments because I chose to take the steps to get there. There is no doubt that I got the right tournaments which put me on the path, but I busted my hump to get to the level of being qualified and available for those tournaments. And, yes, I did have to pay for ONE weeklong clinic. But I have never come home with less money than I left.

Obviously, it is up to each umpire as we all have reasons for certain commitments or not. Some just do not have access to the path needed to be taken and that just isn't right. OTOH, if you just don't work certain games because you think "I'm never going anywhere", how would anyone know you would evenly remotely interested in moving up?

Oh, well, to each their own, just curious.

Yeah, the hotel was an issue - but that's done.
Since an ASA gig is not an option, I'll do another group's national in Ohio next week. Chances are good that there won't be more than 2-3 games per day, and that's OK with me. Part of what I'm looking forward to is what happens in between games and when we're all done for the day. It's interesting to travel to another area and watch the umpires there and talk with them. I learn something from just about every umpire I see or work with - it ranges from "Hmmm, that's good, I've got to try that." to "OMG, I don't ever want to do anything like that."

[outathm]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Absolutely no argument there, but now a question. If someone was qualified for a certain level, why not take the step?

Who knows where or what it will get you.

I agree. There is no really good reason not to take the next step. Some choose not to. It's kind of like quitting smoking.

For me the reason is simple. 2-3 ASA local tourneys a year. I am loyal to ASA in that they got me my start in 'real' softball, and will continue to register and work ASA where possible. I am not the type that needs a label attatched to my name or a list to know what I can do.

Watch me on the field, and I will try my best to prove myself there.