INT on a DP?

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Misspellings and lack of proper punctuation aside, I would like to know how you know that the umpires make "major mistakes...about every other game." Are you expert in rules knowledge? Have you ever read a rule book, or seen one for that matter? Or, are you basing this knowledge of yours on hearsay testimony of other "experts" in the league, you know, those who will swear to you that for the purpose of rule application the hands are considered part of the bat and that the tie always goes to the runner?

I know bc I play in the games and witness all the bad calls/rulings

here is a brief example of some of the things Ive seen this year

gb to SS, who overthrows the 1B, BR is awarded 3B (only 1 ump that game), the rest of these examples all happened with 2 ump crews

umps say a physical throw is necessary to rule INT on the runner

umps think the BU is responsible for plays/runners tagging at 3B

umps not knowing what an intentional dropped ball is, by and INF <2 outs, runner on 1st...

umps not knowing that all overthrows are 2 bases from TOT (batter hit ball to LC, runner on 2nd thought it might get caught so he "tagged", ball was caught on short hop, SS cut the ball off, runner had long since rounded 1B, SS threw to 3B, but went into DBT, ump said "I cant award the BR 3B on a single to the OF" and yes he was aware that the runner was past 1B when the SS threw the ball

do I need more examples, or has my point been made?

[ronald]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

I know bc I play in the games and witness all the bad calls/rulings

here is a brief example of some of the things Ive seen this year

gb to SS, who overthrows the 1B, BR is awarded 3B (only 1 ump that game), the rest of these examples all happened with 2 ump crews

umps say a physical throw is necessary to rule INT on the runner

umps think the BU is responsible for plays/runners tagging at 3B

umps not knowing what an intentional dropped ball is, by and INF <2 outs, runner on 1st...

umps not knowing that all overthrows are 2 bases from TOT (batter hit ball to LC, runner on 2nd thought it might get caught so he "tagged", ball was caught on short hop, SS cut the ball off, runner had long since rounded 1B, SS threw to 3B, but went into DBT, ump said "I cant award the BR 3B on a single to the OF" and yes he was aware that the runner was past 1B when the SS threw the ball

do I need more examples, or has my point been made?

Ok. I can do an outstanding job. Is this league near NO VA?

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by ronald

Ok. I can do an outstanding job. Is this league near NO VA?

no, boston.

and I forgot my favorite example from last year, im playing SS, 2 outs, runners on 1st and 2nd, "slow" gb to me, the runner bumps into my backside, i stumble a little bit, pick the ball up and start jogging towards the dugout. Im assuming theres gonna be INT called on the runner, the ump says no bc I had time to field the ball and make a play after the runner ran into me.

[ronald]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

no, boston.

and I forgot my favorite example from last year, im playing SS, 2 outs, runners on 1st and 2nd, "slow" gb to me, the runner bumps into my backside, i stumble a little bit, pick the ball up and start jogging towards the dugout. Im assuming theres gonna be INT called on the runner, the ump says no bc I had time to field the ball and make a play after the runner ran into me.

sounds like the blue blew it.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Ahem... Speaking as an ASA SP-only umpire... Referring to SP umpires as being the "worst umpires" is, quite frankly, an insult (Oh, by the way... Nice grammar. It's "worst," not "worse," Bub.). I did not say SP umpires were a bunch of newbies. I said this is rec league play, and your expectations should follow accordingly.

I'm not an umpire, nor do I play one on TV , but even I have to chime in here. Yes, there are some SP umpires who seem to spend more time showing off their invented signals or lack of knowledge and such, but the majority of umpies in my friends' co-ed league are decent, hustle, and try to do their job well. Sure, even the good ones have bad days (as in week #1 when an umpire who I think is one of the best in our league decided to grant a courtesy foul when our league rules specifically say there is none), but he's since learned the proper local rule and has done a good job in the subsequent games he has umpired involving our team. And with 13 years observing softball (HS/NFHS and now adult SP), I can say that there I've run into more decent umpires than bad ones; it's just that everyone always seems to remember who they think did a bad job as opposed to the ones that did a good job.

And speaking as a player in an adult kickball league (we use modified ASA rules), it is frustrating when the umpire either doesn't know a rule or continues to make the same mistakes over and over, but seeing this is an adult social sports club, I have to remind my competitive self that these games are just for fun and for being active and bad calls here aren't an end-of-the-world thing. It's not always easy in the heat of the moment, though.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

It's not always easy in the heat of the moment, though.

Disclaimer: This is a general comment and not directed toward Stat-Man or anyone else on this board or otherwise.

Why do people think the "heat of the moment", "heat of the game", etc. is an excuse for any type of poor behavior on anyone's part whether it be the player, coach or official?

And since when is the word "sorry" is a get out of jail free card? Showing remorse is one thing, but nowadays, the putz apologizing has a big, ****-eating grin while shaking your hand like he just sold you a used car at 20% over market!

"Hey, Blue, really didn't mean to fracture your skull when I hit you over the head with my Freak98-painted Ultra. But when you rung me up on that pitch that just caught the corner, I couldn't help myself. You know how it is in the heat of the moment. Sorry!"

Oh, yeah, but that would work real well for any of us, and our lawyers. Sad part is the argument in court WOULD be made that is was an event which occurred in the "heat of the game" and some moron judge and jury is going to buy into it!

We may have opposing thumbs, but sometimes I think that is where any superiority over other species ends.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

So was I wrong when I said that in a 2 man crew the BU has 1st and 2nd and not 3rd base???

Yes and no. BU has 1B and 2B for out/safe calls, but tag-up responsibilities are another matter. No, BU does not have 3B for a tag-up. Yes, the PU screwed up.

Originally Posted by steveshane67

Or was I wrong in saying the PU can override the BU???

Actually, yes, you are dead wrong. This isn't tennis or volleyball where there's one official over all others. No umpire can set aside the judgment of another umpire when it's that other umpire's call. Did the PU screw up? Yes. Can he overrule another umpire? Hell no.

Originally Posted by steveshane67

please enlighten me, some of us are on here bc they dont know everything, and want to learn.

I'm starting to doubt that. All I'm hearing from you is b1tch, b1tch, b1tch.

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Actually, yes, you are dead wrong. This isn't tennis or volleyball where there's one official over all others. No umpire can set aside the judgment of another umpire when it's that other umpire's call. Did the PU screw up? Yes. Can he overrule another umpire? Hell no.

I'm starting to doubt that. All I'm hearing from you is b1tch, b1tch, b1tch.

Is softball different than baseball in the fact the baseball umps will meet, discuss a "contested" play and make a "second" ruling? There was a play a few weeks ago, slow dribbler down the first base line, the pitcher or firstbaseman ran over, fielded the ball as their momentum carried then into foul territory. The PU ruled foul ball. The umps met after the OC argued (ball was hit too slow for the fast runner to be put out) and ruled fair ball and awarded the BR 1B. Since that call was the PUs, someone had to overrule his foul ball call....

Im of the mindset that the umps job at the end of the day is to get the call right. Lets say in a 2 man crew, the BU calls a runner out when they were clearly clearly safe, then by all means the PU should step in and make the correct call. who cares if its not "his call" or hes not supposed to do that, I care about getting the calls right, not about the possibility of embarrassing or hurting the other umps feelings.

In the 2nd half of this thread Ive certainly been *****ing, but most of the time Im on here asking questions about the rules. And once again, I wouldnt be *****ing if the umps didnt have to go through a whole certification process. If they were just some random guys off the street that the commish knows, then thats understandable.

[Umpteenth]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

In the 2nd half of this thread Ive certainly been *****ing, but most of the time Im on here asking questions about the rules. And once again, I wouldnt be *****ing if the umps didnt have to go through a whole certification process. If they were just some random guys off the street that the commish knows, then thats understandable.

Perhaps you should take this up with the local umpire association. Sounds like there might be a problem. I don't think you're going to find the support you want here. I certainly would not throw my partner under the bus. Judgment calls are just that, someone's personal judgment. And you can't protest how someone else interpreted what they saw. You can protest application of a specific rule or rules if there is a problem. Certainly, brom your OP, the PU blew that call on the runner leaving early. If we were perfect in our line of work, we would certainly earn a lot more than $22 per game. I think you might have an isolated problem there that needs local help.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

Is softball different than baseball in the fact the baseball umps will meet, discuss a "contested" play and make a "second" ruling? There was a play a few weeks ago, slow dribbler down the first base line, the pitcher or firstbaseman ran over, fielded the ball as their momentum carried then into foul territory. The PU ruled foul ball. The umps met after the OC argued (ball was hit too slow for the fast runner to be put out) and ruled fair ball and awarded the BR 1B. Since that call was the PUs, someone had to overrule his foul ball call....

Im of the mindset that the umps job at the end of the day is to get the call right. Lets say in a 2 man crew, the BU calls a runner out when they were clearly clearly safe, then by all means the PU should step in and make the correct call. who cares if its not "his call" or hes not supposed to do that, I care about getting the calls right, not about the possibility of embarrassing or hurting the other umps feelings.

You clearly have no clue.

[wadeintothem]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

Is softball different than baseball in the fact the baseball umps will meet, discuss a "contested" play and make a "second" ruling? There was a play a few weeks ago, slow dribbler down the first base line, the pitcher or firstbaseman ran over, fielded the ball as their momentum carried then into foul territory. The PU ruled foul ball. The umps met after the OC argued (ball was hit too slow for the fast runner to be put out) and ruled fair ball and awarded the BR 1B. Since that call was the PUs, someone had to overrule his foul ball call....

If that is true, those guys were truly idiots and shouldn't be on the field as umpires. Then again, based on your postings, I doubt that is a true scenario.

Im of the mindset that the umps job at the end of the day is to get the call right. Lets say in a 2 man crew, the BU calls a runner out when they were clearly clearly safe, then by all means the PU should step in and make the correct call. who cares if its not "his call" or hes not supposed to do that, I care about getting the calls right, not about the possibility of embarrassing or hurting the other umps feelings.

In the 2nd half of this thread Ive certainly been *****ing, but most of the time Im on here asking questions about the rules. And once again, I wouldnt be *****ing if the umps didnt have to go through a whole certification process. If they were just some random guys off the street that the commish knows, then thats understandable.

Tom made the call, but we can meet, discuss and correct the situation.



So, after a long and arduous discussion, we decided to correct the problem at hand. So, please accept our decision as rendered. You now have a clue, just not about softball or umpiring.

Good luck.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by steveshane67

First off jack@ss, YOU need to take a grammar lesson.

Oh, you're off to a great start, bub...

Originally Posted by steveshane67

When I used the word worse, I was comparing SP to FP, saying SP would have worse umpires than FP. Worst would be the proper form if I was saying co-ed E has the worst umpires among mens A, seniors, and co-ed. Usually I find it best that when you try to insult someone, it works better if you actually know what you are talking about (How to Use Worse and Worst - wikiHow)

Guess what. If you had half a clue, you'd know that there's fast pitch, slow pitch, modified pitch and 16" slow pitch. Maybe if you knew a bit more about softball, you would have known that. As such, it should have been "worst," but I digress.

Originally Posted by steveshane67

And no, there is no t shirt or trophy or any prize for winning, my only complaint is that I was under the impression that ALL ASA UMPS have to not only pass a test, but attend rule clinics, and most of the umps in my games do not have a great understanding of the rules. AND each ump gets paid $44/game when they dont seem to be worthy of such salary.

Yes, each umpire should pass the ASA test. However, that doesn't mean they will always be perfect on the field. They're human, and they will make mistakes. Sorry. Deal with it.

There are good umpires, there are bad umpires, there are great umpires, and there are terrible umpires. The great umpires typically get the assignments they want. If they don't like a particular league or level of play because the players are too mouthy, then they don't get those assignments. Who gets those assignments? The rookies. Sad, but true.

So this is an A league, huh? I think the nail was hit right on the head when someone else on this board suggested that "A" stands for something else, and you're the prime example of this alpha male behavior that's all too common in slow pitch (trust me, I've been calling SP for the last, oh, 17 years). My thought is that you fellas probably b1tched and moaned your way out of having good umpires, and you're getting what's left. I've seen it happen.

And like I said... Your attitude and behavior on here only serve to reaffirm my suspicions. Now, I've been more than accommodating with you. I've answered your questions, despite this nagging feeling in the back of my head that, frankly, I shouldn't even bother with you. If you're going to cop an attitude with me, then to hell with you. You aren't even worth the time I spent typing out this message.

I reiterate: rethink your priorities in life, fella, because you've got some issues. Frankly, $44 isn't worth it to get me to call your games.

Originally Posted by steveshane67

Im of the mindset that the umps job at the end of the day is to get the call right. Lets say in a 2 man crew, the BU calls a runner out when they were clearly clearly safe, then by all means the PU should step in and make the correct call. who cares if its not "his call" or hes not supposed to do that, I care about getting the calls right, not about the possibility of embarrassing or hurting the other umps feelings.

Softball is no different from football or basketball, both of which I work in addition to softball. No other official on the field/court has the right to overrule another official's call. If an official makes a call, and another official believes he/she has information that may affect the call (possibly change it), he/she can bring it to the attention of the calling official. It is still up to the calling official whether or not the call stands or changes. There have been a few times in my sports where I've changed a call based on another official's information.

The part I highlighted in red, is the exact kind of attitude we get from coaches/managers in the sports I work and I noticed you picked up on it. I'm not praising you because it is the WRONG attitude to take. I've had coaches/managers who "assumed" my no-call was the right call and having another official call something in my area was the wrong call, when in fact my no-call would have been the result of my not seeing the infraction from the angle I had while my fellow official saw it from their angle. It happens all the time in football and basketball. It doesn't have a place in softball, because one of the two (or three or four, depending on the game, etc.) umpires will always have a call. For another umpire to come in with an opposing call on the same play would create a situation where there is TWO calls on the same play, and a pile of elephant s**t would need to be cleaned up. Yes, I've had situations where two officials made differing calls on the same play in football and basketball, but there's something that can be done in those sports to clean up the elephant s**t that can't be done in softball.

Rant off...have a good day, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[steveshane67]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If that is true, those guys were truly idiots and shouldn't be on the field as umpires. Then again, based on your postings, I doubt that is a true scenario.
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when can I expect your apology??