Illegal pitch mechanic

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Well, at least ASA Umpiring 101...

Your mileage might vary depending on what sanctioning body you're working for.

Are you telling me that there are organizations that let umpires on the field without at least telling them how to call an IP?

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Are you telling me that there are organizations that let umpires on the field without at least telling them how to call an IP?

Well YA, most of them do. ASA and FED will let you on the field as a registered umpire without telling you how to call an IP. The information is in the book, and they assume you read it prior to umpiring a game, but neither tests you on your mechanics prior to registering you. Most states require you take a NFHS test prior to getting your license, and there are a few mechanics questions on there so it MAY be covered, but possibly not. ASA usually is a send us your money and info and we will send you a book and card. ASA does do a GREAT job, IMO, in my area, of providing schools and clinics to learn these things (that attendance is required prior to working state sanctioned tournies) but to work league games all that is required is to pay your registration fees, from what I have heard most states are also this way.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Are you telling me that there are organizations that let umpires on the field without at least telling them how to call an IP?

Oh please. Don't be so naive.

Next, you'll be shocked and appalled when I tell you there are basketball referees out there officiating adult men's league games that aren't explicitly taught the proper mechanic for calling and reporting a timeout.

OH THE HUMANITY!!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Oh please. Don't be so naive.

Me, naive? Yeah, right. Wake up, the coffee's brewing.

ASA, NFHS, NCAA and I'm sure a few others absolutely provide the information and instruction.

If an umpire does not get it, you cannot blame the organization. The information is there in a very timely and multimedia fashion.

I can only think of three reasons why someone would be put on the field without proper instruction:

The local association is too lazy to provide the appropriate training;

The local association needs umpires and people join too late for the clinics; or

The person just doesn't want to be bothered learning the right way to do things, just give them a schedule and tell them how to collect their money.

While they cannot be everything to everyone, the associations with which I have been involved always made their best effort to provide the appropriate training. If anything, our training is poached, but that's another issue.

Again, some people (they certainly are not umpires) don't want to learn or think they know better than the years of development and adjustment.

The sad part is when the training is not available or the person thinks they can skate by asking everyone else how it is done. This is why I get skeptical when someone comes on this or any other site with a litany of very routine questions.

I don't mind helping people. If I did, I certainly would do what I do. However, a web site is no place to learn how to umpire or the basic rules and applications. God help the umpire who tells an evaluator or UIC, "but that is the way they told me to do it on officiating.com".

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Me, naive? Yeah, right. Wake up, the coffee's brewing.

ASA, NFHS, NCAA and I'm sure a few others absolutely provide the information and instruction.

If an umpire does not get it, you cannot blame the organization. The information is there in a very timely and multimedia fashion.

I can only think of three reasons why someone would be put on the field without proper instruction:

The local association is too lazy to provide the appropriate training;

The local association needs umpires and people join too late for the clinics; or

The person just doesn't want to be bothered learning the right way to do things, just give them a schedule and tell them how to collect their money.

While they cannot be everything to everyone, the associations with which I have been involved always made their best effort to provide the appropriate training. If anything, our training is poached, but that's another issue.

Again, some people (they certainly are not umpires) don't want to learn or think they know better than the years of development and adjustment.

The sad part is when the training is not available or the person thinks they can skate by asking everyone else how it is done. This is why I get skeptical when someone comes on this or any other site with a litany of very routine questions.

I don't mind helping people. If I did, I certainly would do what I do. However, a web site is no place to learn how to umpire or the basic rules and applications. God help the umpire who tells an evaluator or UIC, "but that is the way they told me to do it on officiating.com".

Welcome to the real world, sir.

That's life. Sometimes umpires fall through the cracks and don't get top notch training. The good news is that, in the majority of these cases (as in mine), these umpires are doing low level recreation co-ed games. Not that I will call them meaningless, but not properly understanding the IP mechanic in this case is really not the end of the world as you so dramatically make it out to be.

Were I to move up, say, to upper level men's league softball or even fast pitch girls softball, of course I would get the proper training through my association.

But the reality is, when you're new like me, you start out doing low-level games where the players are there just to have a good time, and so am I for the most part. I care about the job I do, and my assignor is not always readily available to answer my questions when I think of them. So I come to places like this, only to encounter pretentious blowhards like yourself hellbent on protecting the integrity of the game via an internet message board.

So, I'm not bothered by the flippancy I get when I ask a simple question and get a "oh that's softball 101" answer. Some people have the heart of a teacher, some do not. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not trying to skate by. I read some of the ASA manual every day. Some days I get it. Some days I feel like I'm getting dumber with every page I read. I write down scenarios from games I work and talk them over with my assignor. I ask some questions here. Some of them are stupid questions, but I've never been afraid to ask stupid questions and encounter people who love to tell you how stupid your question is. That's just life.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by fiasco

...I read some of the ASA manual every day. Some days I get it. Some days I feel like I'm getting dumber with every page I read....

Welcome to the ASA editorial standards!

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Welcome to the real world, sir.

That's life. Sometimes umpires fall through the cracks and don't get top notch training. The good news is that, in the majority of these cases (as in mine), these umpires are doing low level recreation co-ed games. Not that I will call them meaningless, but not properly understanding the IP mechanic in this case is really not the end of the world as you so dramatically make it out to be.

Were I to move up, say, to upper level men's league softball or even fast pitch girls softball, of course I would get the proper training through my association.

But the reality is, when you're new like me, you start out doing low-level games where the players are there just to have a good time, and so am I for the most part. I care about the job I do, and my assignor is not always readily available to answer my questions when I think of them. So I come to places like this, only to encounter pretentious blowhards like yourself hellbent on protecting the integrity of the game via an internet message board.

So, I'm not bothered by the flippancy I get when I ask a simple question and get a "oh that's softball 101" answer. Some people have the heart of a teacher, some do not. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not trying to skate by. I read some of the ASA manual every day. Some days I get it. Some days I feel like I'm getting dumber with every page I read. I write down scenarios from games I work and talk them over with my assignor. I ask some questions here. Some of them are stupid questions, but I've never been afraid to ask stupid questions and encounter people who love to tell you how stupid your question is. That's just life.

I'm going to chime in here a little. I'll be 100% honest when I tell you that my initial reaction to your first postings on here were that of, well, a troll. I'm not saying that's what you are, but that's just how you came across. If you want to change that perception, just stick around, be open-minded to what people say, and just be honest with us and yourself. We're here to help each other.

Bear in mind that umpires, generally-speaking, are naturally an apprehensive bunch. We don't trust outsiders very quickly, mainly because we catch a lot of sh1t. We protect our own. If you're new here, we welcome you. Just don't expect the free backrubs to start right away. You've gotta earn those (see skahtboi down the hall).

Oh, and take nothing of what Mike says personally. He's just brutally honest with you, and most people just aren't used to it at first. But trust me, he's not an evil or ill person, and he devotes more time in a week helping other umpires than most people dedicate in a year.

If you really want to advance, this is, without a doubt, the forum where you want to be. You will absolutely, positively get the definitive answers for rule interpretations here. Stick around, relax, and pay attention.

However, the most important thing to stress is honesty, both with us and, most importantly, with yourself. The forum is like the field: if you lie, you will get caught, and your integrity will forever be shot. If you're honest with us and with yourself, you'll learn more than you thought possible.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I'm going to chime in here a little. I'll be 100% honest when I tell you that my initial reaction to your first postings on here were that of, well, a troll. I'm not saying that's what you are, but that's just how you came across. If you want to change that perception, just stick around, be open-minded to what people say, and just be honest with us and yourself. We're here to help each other.

Bear in mind that umpires, generally-speaking, are naturally an apprehensive bunch. We don't trust outsiders very quickly, mainly because we catch a lot of sh1t. We protect our own. If you're new here, we welcome you. Just don't expect the free backrubs to start right away. You've gotta earn those (see skahtboi down the hall).

Oh, and take nothing of what Mike says personally. He's just brutally honest with you, and most people just aren't used to it at first. But trust me, he's not an evil or ill person, and he devotes more time in a week helping other umpires than most people dedicate in a year.

If you really want to advance, this is, without a doubt, the forum where you want to be. You will absolutely, positively get the definitive answers for rule interpretations here. Stick around, relax, and pay attention.

However, the most important thing to stress is honesty, both with us and, most importantly, with yourself. The forum is like the field: if you lie, you will get caught, and your integrity will forever be shot. If you're honest with us and with yourself, you'll learn more than you thought possible.

I understand the apprehension you feel. I'm not a newbie to officiating. I will start my seventh year of basketball officiating in September.

I am a newbie to softball, though. I can understand how the "tag without the ball" came across as trollish. I was honestly, and without guile, trying to play devil's advocate because I didn't fully understand the rule (since it's written so poorly).

I will, however, say that I've never agreed with the "don't take it personally" meme. I had a guy in a game last night who was arguing balls and strikes with me and then came up to bat the next inning and told me "hey, I'm just riding you a bit, don't take it personally." I called him out in the middle of the inning. I said, "When you speak to someone, you automatically make it personal. Don't absolve yourself of the responsibility of treating someone with respect by encouraging them not to "take" it personal when you were the one who "made" it personal."

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I understand the apprehension you feel. I'm not a newbie to officiating. I will start my seventh year of basketball officiating in September.

I am a newbie to softball, though. I can understand how the "tag without the ball" came across as trollish. I was honestly, and without guile, trying to play devil's advocate because I didn't fully understand the rule (since it's written so poorly).

Again, being honest is good. I've seen a lot of people get chased off of here because, quite simply, they veil their intentions behind their questions, and we get dragged into the middle of some p1ssing match. Stick around, and you'll see it plenty of times.

Originally Posted by fiasco

I will, however, say that I've never agreed with the "don't take it personally" meme. I had a guy in a game last night who was arguing balls and strikes with me and then came up to bat the next inning and told me "hey, I'm just riding you a bit, don't take it personally." I called him out in the middle of the inning. I said, "When you speak to someone, you automatically make it personal. Don't absolve yourself of the responsibility of treating someone with respect by encouraging them not to "take" it personal when you were the one who "made" it personal."

Well, in re-reading this thread, I can see who fired the first shot, and it wasn't Mike. Mike just tends not to mince words once this happens.

And no, you shouldn't take it personally. We're not criticizing you as a person, we're criticizing your judgment or your opinion. There's a huge difference.

I'll admit that I used to take criticism or disagreements personally. If someone disagreed with me, or if they felt that I did a bad job, I internalized it. I felt threatened. Then, years later, I had a boss who used to be in the Marines. Working for him taught me the difference between someone tearing you down to build you up and someone tearing you down just to tear you down.

If someone now tells me, "Dave, you screwed up" or "Dave, you're dead wrong," I don't get mad. I simply ask how, and if I disagree, I disagree.

So seriously... No one here is trying to tear you down for the sake of tearing you down. We tear you down to build you up, brother.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Welcome to the real world, sir.

That's life. Sometimes umpires fall through the cracks and don't get top notch training. The good news is that, in the majority of these cases (as in mine), these umpires are doing low level recreation co-ed games. Not that I will call them meaningless, but not properly understanding the IP mechanic in this case is really not the end of the world as you so dramatically make it out to be.

End of the world? All I did was state a fact of life, the mechanics to calling an IP is, okay in most cases should be Umpiring 101.

Were I to move up, say, to upper level men's league softball or even fast pitch girls softball, of course I would get the proper training through my association.

That's like telling a soldier, "Here's your gun to carry around. If you ever get into a situation where you need it, will give you the ammo and train you how to fire the thing". Why not get the proper training no matter what level of ball you are working? Wouldn't it be nice to be a step ahead of the game?

The money the recreational folks pay you spends just as well as that of a national or international level, why wouldn't your game be the same? There are numerous umpires on this board that give the same effort at the local park as they would in ASA's Hall of Fame Stadium whether it is a 10U tournament or the 18U Gold National.

But the reality is, when you're new like me, you start out doing low-level games where the players are there just to have a good time, and so am I for the most part. I care about the job I do, and my assignor is not always readily available to answer my questions when I think of them. So I come to places like this, only to encounter pretentious blowhards like yourself hellbent on protecting the integrity of the game via an internet message board.

This or any other board is not where one protects the intergrity of anything. If you think supporting and promoting and taking local associations and lazy people to the task of providing or attaining proper training the umpires for which they accept money is being a blowhard, then I guess that's what I am.

So, I'm not bothered by the flippancy I get when I ask a simple question and get a "oh that's softball 101" answer. Some people have the heart of a teacher, some do not. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not trying to skate by. I read some of the ASA manual every day. Some days I get it. Some days I feel like I'm getting dumber with every page I read. I write down scenarios from games I work and talk them over with my assignor. I ask some questions here. Some of them are stupid questions, but I've never been afraid to ask stupid questions and encounter people who love to tell you how stupid your question is. That's just life.

You already had your answer. How many more people did you want to tell you the same thing. I simply noted that this is Umpiring 101.

To be honest, the fact that it is Umpiring101, not being instructed of that would irritate the **** out of me. The only integrity of which you should be worried is that of your association. I would be standing in front of the association board and demanding access to the proper training.

Oh, well, good luck

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

a blowhard, then I guess that's what I am.

Nice to know we both agree on something.

[scottk_61]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Nice to know we both agree on something.

You know, if you work basketball games the same way you represent yourself here, I would hate to work 2 or 3 whistle with you.

You need to take a step back, think about how you are talking and reattempt to learn.

I worked basketball before I ever did softball and you sound somewhat typical, over-officious and resentful if someone brings a point forward that you missed.

I can say this, because I was like that too.

You reacted poorly to a statement that the illegal pitch mechanic is umpiring 101, well it is.
Whether you like it or not, it is basic. Don't feel put upon if some people expect you to know it asap.
I think of it a bit like knowing whether to have a open hand or a closed fist up when you blow your whistle. Violation or foul?
You need to know before you walk out on the floor.

However, if you are learning this on your own, Congrats.
I encourage you to get an umpire rulebook, casebook etc from ASA.
Find you local commish through ASA's website if you need to.
You should have been given one if you registered ASA and if not, email Irish and he will help you out.

Hope this helps a bit.
If I can be of any help, message me privately though the board.
I love seeing new officials work out the kinks in their game and advance.
Especially since my Dr. worn't let me work anymore games until I get this da** aneurysm repaired.

[wadeintothem]

I would suggest not calling an IP.

I mean this in all seriousness. If you dont know what you are calling or how to call it and havent received training on what you are looking for and why - certainly as to intent and spirit, you should not be calling it.

What is it you would be calling that you couldnt resolve in some other way?

One of the worst things an umpire can do is read a sentence in the rule book then run out that day looking for that violation so they can practice enforcing it.

If you are PU - normally in rec league they do things like step on the pitchers plate with their hands together. Just tell em.

If you are bu and they are stepping off the plate, during a lull, go up, clean the Pitchers plate, and tell her, "toe up girl, you gotta touch the plate with both feet".

If you do call it, call it early, with no runners on. Dont wait until the 5th inning with bases loaded to figure out you are going to finally call it.

Its an instructional recreational league, not a competitive travel tournament. 90% will never play a travel tournament - they just want to play.

Let them play ball.

Especially until you receive training.

There are more to IP's than throwing your arm out.

If at all possible, work it in someother way other than simply making calls. Picking boogers and looking for trouble; well you will find it.

If you do call it, call it early, with no runners on. Dont wait until the 5th inning with bases loaded to figure out you are going to finally call it.

Its an instructional recreational league, not a competitive travel tournament. 90% will never play a travel tournament - they just want to play... so let let them play ball.

Especially until you receive training.

There are more to IP's that throwing your arm out and awards balls and bases.

Dont be suprised if several umps disagree with me, on this... but at this point, unless some significant thing is happening like some walking crow hop or are gaining some other big advantage - let it go or figure out another way to deal with it. You dont have the training nor forum for a lot of IP enforcement.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Welcome to the real world, sir.

That's life. Sometimes umpires fall through the cracks and don't get top notch training. The good news is that, in the majority of these cases (as in mine), these umpires are doing low level recreation co-ed games. Not that I will call them meaningless, but not properly understanding the IP mechanic in this case is really not the end of the world as you so dramatically make it out to be.

Were I to move up, say, to upper level men's league softball or even fast pitch girls softball, of course I would get the proper training through my association.

But the reality is, when you're new like me, you start out doing low-level games where the players are there just to have a good time, and so am I for the most part. I care about the job I do, and my assignor is not always readily available to answer my questions when I think of them. So I come to places like this, only to encounter pretentious blowhards like yourself hellbent on protecting the integrity of the game via an internet message board.

So, I'm not bothered by the flippancy I get when I ask a simple question and get a "oh that's softball 101" answer. Some people have the heart of a teacher, some do not. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not trying to skate by. I read some of the ASA manual every day. Some days I get it. Some days I feel like I'm getting dumber with every page I read. I write down scenarios from games I work and talk them over with my assignor. I ask some questions here. Some of them are stupid questions, but I've never been afraid to ask stupid questions and encounter people who love to tell you how stupid your question is. That's just life.

Besides being 100% off on your "pretentious blowhards" comment,

"even fast pitch girls softball" EVEN !
EVEN !

EVEN ! fast pitch girls softball

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Are you telling me that there are organizations that let umpires on the field without at least telling them how to call an IP?

No, that wasn't my point.

What I meant was that not all softball organizations instruct their umpires to call an illegal pitch as soon as it happens. ASA does, of course.

There do exist sanctioning bodies that instruct their umpires to call the illegal pitch when the ball reaches/crosses the plate, regardless of when the infraction actually occured.

Since the OP specified no organization or version of softball, calling an illegal pitch as soon as it happens might not necessarily be Umpiring 101 in all cases.