Illegal pitch?

[Dakota]

ASA Rules. 14U travel team.

I was BU, and it took me awhile to figure out what this kid was doing. It looked illegal, and technically it is I guess, but would you call this?

Here it is:

As she pushes off from the pitcher's plate, once the pivot foot is away from the plate, she twists her foot sideways at the ankle. She is not "leaping" (dictionary definition) since she is only pushing forward (no discernible upward leap), but she is definitely "airborne" (both feet not touching the ground, even allowing for the hole in front of the plate) and therefore by rule definition, "leaping". Basically, her pivot foot loses contact with the ground because she is not keeping the toe pointed down.

So, would you call this an IP? I let it go.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Sounds like what we sometimes call a "jelly leg"; the drag foot isn't dragging, it just kind of floats above the ground, like a jellyfish tentacle waving behind.

Yes, I call that illegal in travel ball. It is absolutely illegal under the NCAA definition of "must drag", and while one might consider it gray and innocuous under ASA or NFHS rules, I feel we do her a disservice if she is allowed to continue that way, believing it is all good.

[CecilOne]

1) I'm not visualizing how "she twists her foot sideways at the ankle" means losing contact with the ground. Does it mean lifting the toe as part of the twist?
2) The idea of "not keeping the toe pointed down" is a clue to not being able to replant, not a rule in itself.
3) If both feet are off the ground together, that's a leap, but IP only should be called if definite and obvious.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

1) I'm not visualizing how "she twists her foot sideways at the ankle" means losing contact with the ground. Does it mean lifting the toe as part of the twist?

She pivots the foot to a horizontal position, pointing sideways.

Originally Posted by CecilOne

2) The idea of "not keeping the toe pointed down" is a clue to not being able to replant, not a rule in itself.

Yes, (except for the men's game), I know... I was only trying to describe what she was doing.

Originally Posted by CecilOne

3) If both feet are off the ground together, that's a leap, but IP only should be called if definite and obvious.

Well, it was obvious to me from the bases. Definite is another matter... that is, is it definitely illegal?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Sounds like what we sometimes call a "jelly leg"; the drag foot isn't dragging, it just kind of floats above the ground, like a jellyfish tentacle waving behind.

Yes, I call that illegal in travel ball. It is absolutely illegal under the NCAA definition of "must drag", and while one might consider it gray and innocuous under ASA or NFHS rules, I feel we do her a disservice if she is allowed to continue that way, believing it is all good.

Actually, from watching Div 1 NCAA a bit on TV, I suspect it would be completely ignored at that level!

There was a definite "snap" to her motion with her foot as she twisted it sideways. Visualize her toe was pointing toward the 3B foul line instead of toward the ground. If she had NOT twisted the foot, it would have been in contact with the ground; as I said, she did not "leap" (again, Webster definition). Her heel stayed where it was; she just pointed her toe sideways. It was strange, but obvious; from A, I could see the bottom of her shoe and her foot was not touching the ground.

[wadeintothem]

yes - call it early she'll fix it right away IMO.

When their foot turns is when you pretty much have to call a leap as its so obvious.

If its a what I call the Geronimo Leap where the toe is pointed down but I would have to put my ear to the ground to see it and its hmm is that a leap? ... well its probably a divot there and not really a leap.

[ronald]

Geronimo move - no.

Jelly move - yes.

Those are two great descriptions.

When I played 22-25 years ago, it was easy to tell who the pitcher was before he went to warm-up. He had a attachment to his shoe so it would not wear out. In 3 years, we only ran into one pitcher who was illegal. All others pushed and dragged. And I mean dragged. This example is a limited sample but I was not playing rec ball games. It was mostly A level tourneys with one Major tournament a year.

That enforcement of push and drag is easy to enforce. Did it drag? If as much as an iota of air, Geronimo Leap, illegal. After a year of enforcing this, the problem will disappear IMO.

What is the hold up?

[LIUmp]

if so...IP.

YouTube - Fast Pitch Leaper

Thanks Wade.

Based on your descrip, yeah I'd call it. Unless it was a lower level game or scrimmage, then I might make the DC aware of it.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

yes - call it early she'll fix it right away IMO.

When their foot turns is when you pretty much have to call a leap as its so obvious.

If its a what I call the Geronimo Leap where the toe is pointed down but I would have to put my ear to the ground to see it and its hmm is that a leap? ... well its probably a divot there and not really a leap.

Had a varsity pitcher doing just that this season. I got her twice in the first three innings when I could clearly see her because she turned her foot. After that she always kept the toe down. I spent the rest of the game thinking, "Is she or isn't she? I can't tell for sure."

[vcblue]

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

if so...IP.

YouTube - Fast Pitch Leaper

Thanks Wade.

Based on your descrip, yeah I'd call it. Unless it was a lower level game or scrimmage, then I might make the DC aware of it.

I had a 14U B All-Star pitching almost the same way except she was dragging her foot (the instep) on the ground with a kick out at the end except for one pitch instead of kick out her pivot foot would go flat and then kick out. I called her on it every time. The dreaded crow hop with out the hop.

[cloverdale]

thanks for the post..had this at district level game...halted game in 1st inning and told pitcher she needed to drag...coach complained it had not been called all year...told her couldnt address that but when I see air from both feet she gets IP...not nit picking here...please explain for me the concept of a toe pointed down but still clearing air...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by LIBlueASA

if so...IP.

YouTube - Fast Pitch Leaper

Thanks Wade.

Based on your descrip, yeah I'd call it. Unless it was a lower level game or scrimmage, then I might make the DC aware of it.

I don't know if you will see it to call it.

Don't get me wrong, I agee it is a leap and should be called, if seen. You are not going to get the same look as allowed by the camera angle and it may be a bit more difficult to see.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by cloverdale

thanks for the post..had this at district level game...halted game in 1st inning and told pitcher she needed to drag...coach complained it had not been called all year...told her couldnt address that but when I see air from both feet she gets IP...not nit picking here...please explain for me the concept of a toe pointed down but still clearing air...

Call what ya see, blue...


From my personal collection...

[Dakota]

But, wade, she's legal in the men's game!

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Dakota

But, wade, she's legal in the men's game!

Isnt everything?