Confused on infield fly

[fiasco]

My first year doing softball. I'm doing lower-level co-ed rec league. ASA rules. Fun times.

It's my understanding that when infield fly is invoked, the batter is out and the runners are free to advance at their own peril.

Two situations I observed during my last two games.

First game, R1 on 2nd, R2 on 3rd, batter hits pop fly to F4, infield fly is called. F4 catches the ball as R1 is about 6 or 7 feet off the base when the IF is called. F4 throws the ball to F6 who steps on the base before R1 can get back. R1 is called out.

So, even though IF is invoked, the tag up rule still applies? (I apologize if I'm not using correct terminology here....I'm new) I thought, based on the rule, the runner had the right to advance, thus it wouldn't be a force out, but R1 would need to be tagged.

Second game, same runners, same pop fly. Except this time, F4 drops the ball. I call BR out, then R1 breaks for 3rd base. She gets caught in a rundown and gets tagged out by F4. I call her out. My observer comes onto the field and declares that she should be safe, as the ball was dead on the infield fly.

He told me after the game that if the ball is dropped, the play is immediately dead and runners go back to their bases. I can't remember reading this in the rule book.

Help?

[wadeintothem]

My first year doing softball. I'm doing lower-level co-ed rec league. ASA rules. Fun times.

Welcome!

It's my understanding that when infield fly is invoked, the batter is out and the runners are free to advance at their own peril.

The batter is out; rules regarding catch/appeal remain the same as any other caught fly ball (or uncaught as the case may be).

Two situations I observed during my last two games.

First game, R1 on 2nd, R2 on 3rd, batter hits pop fly to F4, infield fly is called. F4 catches the ball as R1 is about 6 or 7 feet off the base when the IF is called. F4 throws the ball to F6 who steps on the base before R1 can get back. R1 is called out.

This is not an IF situation and IF should not have been called. Less than two outs - runners at 1B & 2B or 1B, 2B, & 3B.

So, even though IF is invoked, the tag up rule still applies? (I apologize if I'm not using correct terminology here....I'm new) I thought, based on the rule, the runner had the right to advance, thus it wouldn't be a force out, but R1 would need to be tagged.

When correctly called - all "tag up" rules are exactly the same as any other caught/uncaught fly ball.

Second game, same runners, same pop fly. Except this time, F4 drops the ball. I call BR out, then R1 breaks for 3rd base. She gets caught in a rundown and gets tagged out by F4. I call her out. My observer comes onto the field and declares that she should be safe, as the ball was dead on the infield fly.

The ball is not dead on IF. Were IF correctly called - this is an out. Runners advance at their own risk.

He told me after the game that if the ball is dropped, the play is immediately dead and runners go back to their bases. I can't remember reading this in the rule book.

Help?

It is not in any rule book, so tell your obvserver to stay off your field and observe only.

[bniu]

This is not an IF situation and IF should not have been called. Less than two outs - runners at 1B & 2B or 1B, 2B, & 3B.

even easier way to remember the rule: less than two outs, force play at 3rd. that's the way I learned it

[bniu]

only two benefits of intentionally letting a fly ball in the IF drop (non IFF situation) with a runner on first are:

1. Runner on 1st is fast while the batter is slow. Let the ball fall to the ground UNTOUCHED, pick it up on the bounce, get the force at 2nd. Of course you risk a bad bounce and then getting no one out...

2. Batter is pissed at the short fly and just standing at home plate muttering to himself, and R1 is holding 2 feet off first, pick it up on the bounce throw to 2nd, and then throw to 1st, double play!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bniu

only two benefits of intentionally letting a fly ball in the IF drop (non IFF situation) with a runner on first are:

1. Runner on 1st is fast while the batter is slow. Let the ball fall to the ground UNTOUCHED, pick it up on the bounce, get the force at 2nd. Of course you risk a bad bounce and then getting no one out...

2. Batter is pissed at the short fly and just standing at home plate muttering to himself, and R1 is holding 2 feet off first, pick it up on the bounce throw to 2nd, and then throw to 1st, double play!

Why would anyone be dumb enough to let the ball drop untouched?

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Why would anyone be dumb enough to let the ball drop untouched?

Two word answer: slow pitch.

(don't get me wrong...there is good slow pitch, and damn it's a good game when played well...but...)

[Chess Ref]

First game sitch isn't an IFF because the runners were on 2B and 3B. I'm not sure if that was a typing error or the actual sitch. As written no IFF.

Second game Sitch same thing is that a typing error ?

You only have an IFF when there are runners on 1B and 2B, or the bases are loaded with less then 2 outs.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by fiasco

It's my understanding that when infield fly is invoked, the batter is out and the runners are free to advance at their own peril.

True.

Two situations I observed during my last two games.

First game, R1 on 2nd, R2 on 3rd, batter hits pop fly to F4, infield fly is called. F4 catches the ball as R1 is about 6 or 7 feet off the base when the IF is called. F4 throws the ball to F6 who steps on the base before R1 can get back. R1 is called out.

So, even though IF is invoked, the tag up rule still applies? (I apologize if I'm not using correct terminology here....I'm new) I thought, based on the rule, the runner had the right to advance, thus it wouldn't be a force out, but R1 would need to be tagged.

Correct call. Runners are not forced, but still are liable to be put out on appeal if they left the base before the caught ball was first touched. In this case, the throw to F6 was a live ball appeal.

Second game, same runners, same pop fly. Except this time, F4 drops the ball. I call BR out, then R1 breaks for 3rd base. She gets caught in a rundown and gets tagged out by F4. I call her out. My observer comes onto the field and declares that she should be safe, as the ball was dead on the infield fly.

He told me after the game that if the ball is dropped, the play is immediately dead and runners go back to their bases. I can't remember reading this in the rule book.
Help?

Your observer is WRONG. Your call was correct. He may have been confused with an intentionally dropped ball situation. In that case, the ball is dead and the BR is out.

[Ed Maeder]

First of all with R1 on 2nd and R2 on 3rd there would be no infield fly situation. Maybe you meant to say R2 on 1st. In your first play even though the infield fly is called runners still have to tag on the touch of the catch, or they are able to be put out on a live ball appeal. This is not a force out, but it is a live ball appeal that they left the base before the ball was first touched. In your second play your observer needs some training. The batter would be out and the force would be off, but the runners can run and be in jeopardy of being put out. The ball is not dead on the miss unless it is judged to be intentionally dropped. You guys type much faster then I do. Ditto to what has been said.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

First of all with R1 on 2nd and R2 on 3rd there would be no infield fly situation.

I think that we have all caught this!

[fiasco]

Sorry, yes. Typo on my part. Both situations had runners on 1st and 2nd. Both were definitely IFF situations.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Sorry, yes. Typo on my part. Both situations had runners on 1st and 2nd. Both were definitely IFF situations.

Good.

The one thing to remember about the IFF is that the only other rule it affects is that you cannot have an intentional drop.

All other rules apply just as they would during any play where there was no force out available.

Gotta love that IF stuff, especially at the coed rec level. Perhaps the most misunderstood rule, next to the courtesy foul. I can't count my hands and feet the number of times I've had ucking fidiots at that level come to me with the most ridiculous questions/statements regarding the IF.

Even worse is when an umpire says the IF is an automatic dead ball, such as was posted in the OP. I know some complexes and leagues, this may be the case, but where an umpire says "it's in the book", is when I turn blue and want to spew my lunch and/or dinner. Case in point: Went to another city for a tournament of a regional nature (I can't say more than that because it'll give away the city) as a player/coach of a men's team. This tournament actually has a men's division, women's division, and coed division, and the coaches are required to appear at the rules meeting the night before (it's also the coaches' opportunity to have the regional association consider changes to their rules, etc). The UIC for the tournament was also the UIC for the complex at which we would be playing. He and the tournament director went over the rules adaptions (we were supposed to use ASA rules) for the tournament, such as run rule, etc. Nothing was said about the IF. I was introduced to the UIC as a fellow umpire by the tournament director (I've known the tournament director for years). The UIC and I exchanged war stories. So far, so good (at least in my mind).

During round robin play the next day, we had an IF situation (we were on defense) and somehow my shortstop dropped it, and the offense started to run. My shortstop threw it to 3rd, and my 3rd baseman for some unknown reason thought it was a force. The runner stopped short and started to run back to 2B, and then next thing I knew, the umpires starting yelling "dead ball". I was like HUH? I discussed it with the home plate umpire, who informed me that it was a rule at the complex. I said it wasn't discussed in the rules meeting the night before and that he might want to talk with the UIC about it. He told me that kind of talk would get me ejected from the complex and banned from the tournament (keep in mind only the tournament director could eject someone from the complex and ban them during this tournament-the umpires could only eject someone from the game). So I quietly walked away.

After the game, I approached the UIC and asked why he failed to divulge to us during the rules meeting that the IF was an automatic dead ball at this complex. His answer: You're a fellow blue and you don't know that the ASA rules says that IF is a dead ball? I looked at him and said, show me in the book where it says that. He and the tournament director spent the next hour going through the book looking, of course, to no avail. The regional commissioner (the tournament director's "boss") was stunned that the UIC and his own tournament director didn't know it wasn't in the book, and that they had failed to announce it was a complex rule.

To top it off, later in the tournament, during the championship game, the IF was NOT an automatic dead ball. When I asked the tournament director about this (the UIC was working the game), he said they directed the umpires to follow the ASA rule that it was not a dead ball until all play was evidently over. I was not too happy with that explanation. I was sorely tempted to report the complex UIC to his metro or state UIC for incompetence, but the regional commissioner said just let it go, we'll see if you'll be our UIC next year if you're not playing.

[ChampaignBlue]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Gotta love that IF stuff, especially at the coed rec level. Perhaps the most misunderstood rule, next to the courtesy foul. I can't count my hands and feet the number of times I've had ucking fidiots at that level come to me with the most ridiculous questions/statements regarding the IF.

That level? I was doing a men's AA State SP (both usages of the term AA) around noon and had a major league popup to 2nd, we both call and signal the IF. After staring at the sun for what seemed like a couple of minutes 2nd covers his eyes and says "I can't see" and the balls drops to the ground. Runner on 2nd takes off for third, easily, and runner on first goes over to chat with 2nd who has picked up the ball. Partner is looking at me like "I'm eventually going to have to call time" and I'm just standing by the runner. Finally left field yells out "tag him" he does and I call the out. Runner yells at me "you called IF", "yep, I did", "but that's a dead ball", "nope, it's not".

After the game a coach that was watching asked why I didn't toss the runner for yelling like that and I was honest, said "I was too busy trying not to laugh".

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Second game, same runners, same pop fly. Except this time, F4 drops the ball. I call BR out, then R1 breaks for 3rd base. She gets caught in a rundown and gets tagged out by F4. I call her out. My observer comes onto the field and declares that she should be safe, as the ball was dead on the infield fly.

He told me after the game that if the ball is dropped, the play is immediately dead and runners go back to their bases. I can't remember reading this in the rule book.

Help?

What Wade said. You can't remember reading this part because it's not in the book. And your observer is there to observe, so what the he11 is he doing coming on the field? If he wants to make up rules he should be working the bases as your partner.

Welcome to the world of umpiring.