Confused on infield fly

[Ed Maeder]

First of all with R1 on 2nd and R2 on 3rd there would be no infield fly situation. Maybe you meant to say R2 on 1st. In your first play even though the infield fly is called runners still have to tag on the touch of the catch, or they are able to be put out on a live ball appeal. This is not a force out, but it is a live ball appeal that they left the base before the ball was first touched. In your second play your observer needs some training. The batter would be out and the force would be off, but the runners can run and be in jeopardy of being put out. The ball is not dead on the miss unless it is judged to be intentionally dropped. You guys type much faster then I do. Ditto to what has been said.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

First of all with R1 on 2nd and R2 on 3rd there would be no infield fly situation.

I think that we have all caught this!

[fiasco]

Sorry, yes. Typo on my part. Both situations had runners on 1st and 2nd. Both were definitely IFF situations.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Sorry, yes. Typo on my part. Both situations had runners on 1st and 2nd. Both were definitely IFF situations.

Good.

The one thing to remember about the IFF is that the only other rule it affects is that you cannot have an intentional drop.

All other rules apply just as they would during any play where there was no force out available.

Gotta love that IF stuff, especially at the coed rec level. Perhaps the most misunderstood rule, next to the courtesy foul. I can't count my hands and feet the number of times I've had ucking fidiots at that level come to me with the most ridiculous questions/statements regarding the IF.

Even worse is when an umpire says the IF is an automatic dead ball, such as was posted in the OP. I know some complexes and leagues, this may be the case, but where an umpire says "it's in the book", is when I turn blue and want to spew my lunch and/or dinner. Case in point: Went to another city for a tournament of a regional nature (I can't say more than that because it'll give away the city) as a player/coach of a men's team. This tournament actually has a men's division, women's division, and coed division, and the coaches are required to appear at the rules meeting the night before (it's also the coaches' opportunity to have the regional association consider changes to their rules, etc). The UIC for the tournament was also the UIC for the complex at which we would be playing. He and the tournament director went over the rules adaptions (we were supposed to use ASA rules) for the tournament, such as run rule, etc. Nothing was said about the IF. I was introduced to the UIC as a fellow umpire by the tournament director (I've known the tournament director for years). The UIC and I exchanged war stories. So far, so good (at least in my mind).

During round robin play the next day, we had an IF situation (we were on defense) and somehow my shortstop dropped it, and the offense started to run. My shortstop threw it to 3rd, and my 3rd baseman for some unknown reason thought it was a force. The runner stopped short and started to run back to 2B, and then next thing I knew, the umpires starting yelling "dead ball". I was like HUH? I discussed it with the home plate umpire, who informed me that it was a rule at the complex. I said it wasn't discussed in the rules meeting the night before and that he might want to talk with the UIC about it. He told me that kind of talk would get me ejected from the complex and banned from the tournament (keep in mind only the tournament director could eject someone from the complex and ban them during this tournament-the umpires could only eject someone from the game). So I quietly walked away.

After the game, I approached the UIC and asked why he failed to divulge to us during the rules meeting that the IF was an automatic dead ball at this complex. His answer: You're a fellow blue and you don't know that the ASA rules says that IF is a dead ball? I looked at him and said, show me in the book where it says that. He and the tournament director spent the next hour going through the book looking, of course, to no avail. The regional commissioner (the tournament director's "boss") was stunned that the UIC and his own tournament director didn't know it wasn't in the book, and that they had failed to announce it was a complex rule.

To top it off, later in the tournament, during the championship game, the IF was NOT an automatic dead ball. When I asked the tournament director about this (the UIC was working the game), he said they directed the umpires to follow the ASA rule that it was not a dead ball until all play was evidently over. I was not too happy with that explanation. I was sorely tempted to report the complex UIC to his metro or state UIC for incompetence, but the regional commissioner said just let it go, we'll see if you'll be our UIC next year if you're not playing.

[ChampaignBlue]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Gotta love that IF stuff, especially at the coed rec level. Perhaps the most misunderstood rule, next to the courtesy foul. I can't count my hands and feet the number of times I've had ucking fidiots at that level come to me with the most ridiculous questions/statements regarding the IF.

That level? I was doing a men's AA State SP (both usages of the term AA) around noon and had a major league popup to 2nd, we both call and signal the IF. After staring at the sun for what seemed like a couple of minutes 2nd covers his eyes and says "I can't see" and the balls drops to the ground. Runner on 2nd takes off for third, easily, and runner on first goes over to chat with 2nd who has picked up the ball. Partner is looking at me like "I'm eventually going to have to call time" and I'm just standing by the runner. Finally left field yells out "tag him" he does and I call the out. Runner yells at me "you called IF", "yep, I did", "but that's a dead ball", "nope, it's not".

After the game a coach that was watching asked why I didn't toss the runner for yelling like that and I was honest, said "I was too busy trying not to laugh".

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by ChampaignBlue

That level? I was doing a men's AA State SP (both usages of the term AA) around noon and had a major league popup to 2nd, we both call and signal the IF...........

I realize this thread is old, but I didn't want to start a new thread on an old topic. But I have an IF mechanic question/observation:

2 man system

As a BU, when I feel 'normal effort' by an infielder has been achieved I'll give the IF signal to my PU. (I do understand that the PU has fly ball responsibilities in this case) I'll then wait for a verbal call from the PU. My question is , is it a good mechanic to 'echo' his/her IF verbal? I ask this because how many times do we hear from either coach (OC/DC) ' we didn't hear you call IF'.

Thoughts?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by okla21fan

I realize this thread is old, but I didn't want to start a new thread on an old topic. But I have an IF mechanic question/observation:

2 man system

As a BU, when I feel 'normal effort' by an infielder has been achieved I'll give the IF signal to my PU. (I do understand that the PU has fly ball responsibilities in this case) I'll then wait for a verbal call from the PU. My question is , is it a good mechanic to 'echo' his/her IF verbal? I ask this because how many times do we hear from either coach (OC/DC) ' we didn't hear you call IF'.

Thoughts?

I think two verbals may actually confuse the coaches and players. It is not unusual for coaches to complain they didn't hear a call, but the reason why is that they, the players and fans are usually screaming their head off.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by okla21fan

I realize this thread is old, but I didn't want to start a new thread on an old topic. But I have an IF mechanic question/observation:

2 man system

As a BU, when I feel 'normal effort' by an infielder has been achieved I'll give the IF signal to my PU. (I do understand that the PU has fly ball responsibilities in this case) I'll then wait for a verbal call from the PU. My question is , is it a good mechanic to 'echo' his/her IF verbal? I ask this because how many times do we hear from either coach (OC/DC) ' we didn't hear you call IF'.

Thoughts?

I wouldn't do it. Anytime we speak, we run the risk of confusing the players into thinking we're killing the play. Having two umpires make the same call will only double that likelihood, especially when it's coming from the BU (someone who normally doesn't make a call at that moment).