May ASA Rule Clarifications and Plays

[Tru_in_Blu]

I'm struggling with this one. Can someone explain?

Does the Run Count?

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B and R3 on 1B with two outs, B6 hits a shot into right centerfield. R1, R2 and R3 score before B6 is thrown out at 2B for the third out. F5 yells that R2 missed 3B and ask for a fourth-out appeal. The umpire rules R2 out on a fourth-out appeal and declares the force back into effect and no runs score.

Ruling umpire’s ruling was incorrect, here’s why.

The fourth-out appeal is correct because Rule 5, Section 5, C stipulates, “no run shall score if a “fourth out” is the result of an appeal of a base missed or left too soon on a runner who has scored.” Therefore R2 can be properly appealed and called out as the umpire ruled.

However, the force out is incorrect. Rule 1, Definitions, Force Out: An out which may be made only when a runner loses the right to the base that the runner is occupying because the batter becomes a batter-runner, and before the batter-runner or trailing runner has been put out.” Also according to Rule 5 Section 5B [1] “No run shall score if the third out of the inning is the result of a batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner. On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred.” On this play the force would not be in Effect, R2 would be called out on the fourth out appeal and R1 would score.


I don't know that the defense would request a "fourth out appeal" necessarily, but rather just that the runner from 2B missed 3B. I can't reconcile that this wouldn't still be considered a force play.

I'm pretty sure that if the BR missed 1B in the above scenario and the defense appealed that, the BR would be out and no runs would score. But now I'm having doubts about that.

Thanx for any clarifications on the clarification.

Ted

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'm struggling with this one. Can someone explain?

Does the Run Count?

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B and R3 on 1B with two outs, B6 hits a shot into right centerfield. R1, R2 and R3 score before B6 is thrown out at 2B for the third out. F5 yells that R2 missed 3B and ask for a fourth-out appeal. The umpire rules R2 out on a fourth-out appeal and declares the force back into effect and no runs score.

Ruling umpire’s ruling was incorrect, here’s why.

The fourth-out appeal is correct because Rule 5, Section 5, C stipulates, “no run shall score if a “fourth out” is the result of an appeal of a base missed or left too soon on a runner who has scored.” Therefore R2 can be properly appealed and called out as the umpire ruled.

However, the force out is incorrect. Rule 1, Definitions, Force Out: An out which may be made only when a runner loses the right to the base that the runner is occupying because the batter becomes a batter-runner, and before the batter-runner or trailing runner has been put out.” Also according to Rule 5 Section 5B [1] “No run shall score if the third out of the inning is the result of a batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner. On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred.” On this play the force would not be in Effect, R2 would be called out on the fourth out appeal and R1 would score.


I don't know that the defense would request a "fourth out appeal" necessarily, but rather just that the runner from 2B missed 3B. I can't reconcile that this wouldn't still be considered a force play.

Don't know why you have a problem with this. The specific rule is quoted for you. When B6 was retired, it alleviated the force out for all runners (rule quoted above). We all know that there can be no force outs on any runner when a trailing runner including the BR has been retired.

I'm pretty sure that if the BR missed 1B in the above scenario and the defense appealed that, the BR would be out and no runs would score. But now I'm having doubts about that.

Thanx for any clarifications on the clarification.

Ted

A fourth out appeal could not be valid on any runner which did not score. Unless the BR ends up scoring, missing 1B is irrelevant if the 3rd out was recorded prior to the appeal.

[vcblue]

Wouldn't R3 also score? R3 made it home before the appeal.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by vcblue

Wouldn't R3 also score? R3 made it home before the appeal.

Because the third out was not a force out, whether or not the run scores is, indeed, a timing play. As a result, yes, the run would score. The appeal should not have been honored, so the appeal is irrelevant in this situation.

[vcblue]

The appeal is irrelevant to R3, but R2 does not score because of the appeal. So two runs not three score.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by vcblue

The appeal is irrelevant to R3, but R2 does not score because of the appeal. So two runs not three score.

No, only one run would score since the final out of the inning (R2) preceded the third runner (R3).

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Don't know why you have a problem with this. The specific rule is quoted for you. When B6 was retired, it alleviated the force out for all runners (rule quoted above). We all know that there can be no force outs on any runner when a trailing runner including the BR has been retired.




A fourth out appeal could not be valid on any runner which did not score. Unless the BR ends up scoring, missing 1B is irrelevant if the 3rd out was recorded prior to the appeal.

Just trying to wrap my brain around the wording.

There are plenty of ambiguous rules in the book. The police talk to three witnesses to a crime and come up with three different descriptions of the criminal. Perspective is what I'm seeking here.


I understand that on a 4th out appeal, any succeeding runners would not score. I'm sensing that since the BR reached 1B and was out subsequent to that action, that the force is rendered moot.

So, in the above scenario, had the BR been caught in a rundown between first and second while all other runs scored, and then he returned to 1B safely, could the defense then appeal R2 missing 3B and the force play still be in effect? The appeal would result in R2 being called out for the 3rd out of the inning, and this would negate R1's run?

Ted

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Just trying to wrap my brain around the wording.

There are plenty of ambiguous rules in the book. The police talk to three witnesses to a crime and come up with three different descriptions of the criminal. Perspective is what I'm seeking here.


I understand that on a 4th out appeal, any succeeding runners would not score. I'm sensing that since the BR reached 1B and was out subsequent to that action, that the force is rendered moot.

So, in the above scenario, had the BR been caught in a rundown between first and second while all other runs scored, and then he returned to 1B safely, could the defense then appeal R2 missing 3B and the force play still be in effect? The appeal would result in R2 being called out for the 3rd out of the inning, and this would negate R1's run?

Ted

I don't think you can make this comparison. Two completely different scenarios, two different rule applications.

[MGKBLUE]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I don't think you can make this comparison. Two completely different scenarios, two different rule applications.

Agree completetly different scenarios but correct. No runs would score in the revised scenario.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I don't think you can make this comparison. Two completely different scenarios, two different rule applications.

I didn't mean to offer the second scenario as a comparison, but it may have come across that way. I'm trying to determine when/if the force play on R2 going into 3B is in effect.

Ted

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I didn't mean to offer the second scenario as a comparison, but it may have come across that way. I'm trying to determine when/if the force play on R2 going into 3B is in effect.

Ted

It isn't once B6 is ruled out at 2B.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Because the third out was not a force out, whether or not the run scores is, indeed, a timing play. As a result, yes, the run would score. The appeal should not have been honored, so the appeal is irrelevant in this situation.

Sheesh, I should have read this sitch better. My answer above is dead wrong, and I apologize if anyone paid any attention to it.

The key to this situation is that the BR was called out. As a result, all forces are off. Since the force is no longer in effect, the appeal becomes a timing play.

Only R1 scores.