How would you rule on these plays.

[gordon30307]

Fed rules only.

R1 on third R2 on first no outs in each case.

1. Sharply hit ground ball in the infield R2 is 30 feet from second when the relay either hits R2 or the throw sails (relay man clearly trying to avoid hitting R2) over the first basemans head.

2. Right fielder playing in. Fly ball to short right the ball drops in for a Texas Leaguer. R2 does a pop up slide or goes in standing and makes contact (not malicious) with the fielder on the base R2 is clearly safe beating the throw at second BR makes a wide turn at first the fielder may or may not have a play on BR.

3. Slow grounder in the infield R2 goes in to second standing up and is out on a close play. The athletic infielder makes a great play avoiding physical contact with R2(throw doesn't appear to be altered) and retires BR and R1 obviously scores.

4. No outs and nonone one base. BR hits one down the line for extra bases. BR does a pop up slide or goes in standing and makes contact (not malicious) or no contact with the fielder on third. The play is close but BR is clealy safe.

[David B]

But I'll try and read between the lines.

Originally posted by gordon30307
Fed rules only.

R1 on third R2 on first no outs in each case.

1. Sharply hit ground ball in the infield R2 is 30 feet from second when the relay either hits R2 or the throw sails (relay man clearly trying to avoid hitting R2) over the first basemans head.

If it hits the runner we have TO, and a double play becuase of the INT. If he throws over his head, I'm probably not going to call anything. As Carl would say, tell the coach to quit playing freshman in the infield.

The pivot at 2B should take them out of line of the runner.

2. Right fielder playing in. Fly ball to short right the ball drops in for a Texas Leaguer. R2 does a pop up slide or goes in standing and makes contact (not malicious) with the fielder on the base R2 is clearly safe beating the throw at second BR makes a wide turn at first the fielder may or may not have a play on BR.

This is not a FPSR since its a base hit. A pop up slide is not an illegal slide so the runner has done nothing wrong unless he intentionally interferes with a play. Again whats the fielder doing on the base with no play?

3. Slow grounder in the infield R2 goes in to second standing up and is out on a close play. The athletic infielder makes a great play avoiding physical contact with R2(throw doesn't appear to be altered) and retires BR and R1 obviously scores.

You answered your own question, he didn't interfere with the play thus no penalty. There is not a penalty for going into 2B standing up unless you interfere with the play.

4. No outs and nonone one base. BR hits one down the line for extra bases. BR does a pop up slide or goes in standing and makes contact (not malicious) or no contact with the fielder on third. The play is close but BR is clealy safe. [/B]

What's the question here? The runner did nothing illegal, only what he's required to do. Tell the 9th grader to get off the bag. He'll learn sooner or later.

[Edited by David B on Mar 14th, 2005 at 11:17 AM]

[fwump]

Ummmmm,

David I gotta disagree. We don't have enough info on sitch #1.
Saturday I had this: R1 no outs. Batter bunts. Catcher picks ball in front of home plate and pegs BR in the back of the helmet. BR was in the lane. Do you have interference? No,you have an errant throw. In the situation presented by gordo unless R2 deliberately interferes with throw by the pivot man I have nothing but an errant throw.

Sitch #2 is a obviously a FPSR play! The fact that the batter gorked the ball for a cheap hit does not remove the force play. I may have interference on this play. Hard to say. Again hard to picture play as described.

Mike

[jicecone]

Originally posted by gordon30307
Fed rules only.

R1 on third R2 on first no outs in each case.

1. Sharply hit ground ball in the infield R2 is 30 feet from second when the relay either hits R2 or the throw sails (relay man clearly trying to avoid hitting R2) over the first basemans head.

2. Right fielder playing in. Fly ball to short right the ball drops in for a Texas Leaguer. R2 does a pop up slide or goes in standing and makes contact (not malicious) with the fielder on the base R2 is clearly safe beating the throw at second BR makes a wide turn at first the fielder may or may not have a play on BR.

3. Slow grounder in the infield R2 goes in to second standing up and is out on a close play. The athletic infielder makes a great play avoiding physical contact with R2(throw doesn't appear to be altered) and retires BR and R1 obviously scores.

4. No outs and nonone one base. BR hits one down the line for extra bases. BR does a pop up slide or goes in standing and makes contact (not malicious) or no contact with the fielder on third. The play is close but BR is clealy safe.

1.Hits the runner, we have interference. Wether it was intentional or not , it was interference. If the fielder overthrows, we have two runners still on base.

2. R2 makes an illegal slide on a Force play, and make contact. 2 outs Dlb play.

3. What we have here is R1 scoring and the fielder making a great play for 2 outs. No contact, no interference.

4. Not a FPSL. As already stated, BR is clearly safe.

** In #2, the fact that it was a "Texas Leaguer" does not make it a base hit and remove the force at 2nd. In fact I think this would be scored F9-F6-F3 (2 out)

[GarthB]

jicecone writes: 1.Hits the runner, we have interference. Wether it was intentional or not , it was interference.

I'm not a FED expert by any means, but how does this jive with FED 8-4-2(g)

Any runner is out when he:

intentionally interferes with a throw or a thrown ball...

[David B]

Originally posted by fwump
Ummmmm,

David I gotta disagree. We don't have enough info on sitch #1.
Saturday I had this: R1 no outs. Batter bunts. Catcher picks ball in front of home plate and pegs BR in the back of the helmet. BR was in the lane. Do you have interference? No,you have an errant throw. In the situation presented by gordo unless R2 deliberately interferes with throw by the pivot man I have nothing but an errant throw.

Sitch #2 is a obviously a FPSR play! The fact that the batter gorked the ball for a cheap hit does not remove the force play. I may have interference on this play. Hard to say. Again hard to picture play as described.

Mike

I don't have my book with me, and this is a force play at the base, but not a FPSR since there is no attempt at a double play.

I'll have to look at my rulings, I know FED has some strange interpretations on this, but Carl did a sheet on these and I'll check back on that one.

Since the runner is obviously safe and the play is a base hit, I'm still not going to penalize the runner and I'm certainly not calling it a DP.

thanks
David

[jicecone]

Originally posted by GarthB
jicecone writes: 1.Hits the runner, we have interference. Wether it was intentional or not , it was interference.

I'm not a FED expert by any means, but how does this jive with FED 8-4-2(g)

Any runner is out when he:

intentionally interferes with a throw or a thrown ball...

Garth, I agree with what your saying but I based this upon two rulings:

1.BRD2005 Sit 320 pg 204 bottom

"Except: OFF INTERP 224-320: Rumble: On a force play a runner hit by a thrown ball between bases is guilty of interference if he did not slide or [presumably] run well away from the fielder making the throw. (News #1,3/98)"

As further stated 30 feet from first may be a different scenario.

This is also as stated in Childress's book, 2004 "The Usual Suspects", Chapt I pg 12. Play Ruling 11. "Result: Double Play"

Carl states in BRD2005 pg 205,
"Note 342-320: The Rumble ruling is consistent and illuminating, therefore helpful. But it is not definitive, for it leaves an important question unanswered: How close does the runner have to be to the "forced" base before the umpire rules interference?"

He does state further on though, "Let the umpire judgement carry the day"

[mcrowder]

You guys ruling interference on R2 who did nothing but fail to dematerialize when he was put out are just asking your fielders to peg R2 on purpose the next time.

Interference on this play required intent. This is not interference.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by jicecone

Garth, I agree with what your saying but I based this upon two rulings:

1.BRD2005 Sit 320 pg 204 bottom

"Except: OFF INTERP 224-320: Rumble: On a force play a runner hit by a thrown ball between bases is guilty of interference if he did not slide or [presumably] run well away from the fielder making the throw. (News #1,3/98)"

As further stated 30 feet from first may be a different scenario.

This is also as stated in Childress's book, 2004 "The Usual Suspects", Chapt I pg 12. Play Ruling 11. "Result: Double Play"

Carl states in BRD2005 pg 205,
"Note 342-320: The Rumble ruling is consistent and illuminating, therefore helpful. But it is not definitive, for it leaves an important question unanswered: How close does the runner have to be to the "forced" base before the umpire rules interference?"

He does state further on though, "Let the umpire judgement carry the day"

Given upon what you based your opinion, I am surprised at your conclusion.

It still appears to me that unless something "special" is happening, the rule wins out. "Iintentional or not, it is still interference" will prove to be incorrect the majority of the time.

[Edited by GarthB on Mar 14th, 2005 at 03:42 PM]

[GarthB]

Originally posted by mcrowder
You guys ruling interference on R2 who did nothing but fail to dematerialize when he was put out are just asking your fielders to peg R2 on purpose the next time.

Interference on this play required intent. This is not interference.

Exactly.

[fwump]

jicecone said...

** In #2, the fact that it was a "Texas Leaguer" does not make it a base hit and remove the force at 2nd. In fact I think this would be scored F9-F6-F3 (2 out)


Situation stated "dropped for a base hit" I think that would be R2 out 9-6 BR reaches on FC. Am I to understand the "Force Play Slide Rule" only applies to psbl DP? Don't have rule book here at work.


Mike

[jicecone]

Originally posted by GarthB

Given upon what you based your opinion, I am surprised at your conclusion.

It still appears to me that unless something "special" is happening, the rule wins out. "Iintentional or not, it is still interference" will prove to be incorrect the majority of the time.

[Edited by GarthB on Mar 14th, 2005 at 03:42 PM]

My conclusion?

As stated previously, I tend to agree with you and what is written.

However, I can also see how one could conclude that at 30 feet from second base, the runner could very well be, "trying to alter the play". It also seems to me that others who are far more respected than me in interpreting these rules, belive this to be the case also.

Im am very open to getting the correct ruling.

[fwump]

David,

I agree. Now that I think about Sitch #2 it would be reaching to call interference on that one since there is likely no further play to be made.

Mike

[GarthB]

Originally posted by jicecone

My conclusion?

As stated previously, I tend to agree with you and what is written.

However, I can also see how one could conclude that at 30 feet from second base, the runner could very well be, "trying to alter the play". It also seems to me that others who are far more respected than me in interpreting these rules, belive this to be the case also.

Im am very open to getting the correct ruling.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. I thought your conclusion that was that it didn't matter whether interference with a thrown ball was intentional or not.

I don't know upon what Rumble based his ruling. I don't know if if was in response to a question or in response to a specific play. Both could have included information that altered his opinion. I would agree that one would probably have to witness this play to ascertain what the runner was doing, but since there in no mention of an act that could interpreted as intentional interference in the original post, I would rule no interference.

Fed rules only.

R1 on third R2 on first no outs in each case.

1. Sharply hit ground ball in the infield R2 is 30 feet from second when the relay either hits R2 or the throw sails (relay man clearly trying to avoid hitting R2) over the first basemans head.
__________________________________________________ __________
Nothing in either case unless the runner did something to alter. Being there is not a reason.


2. Right fielder playing in. Fly ball to short right the ball drops in for a Texas Leaguer. R2 does a pop up slide or goes in standing and makes contact (not malicious) with the fielder on the base R2 is clearly safe beating the throw at second BR makes a wide turn at first the fielder may or may not have a play on BR.
__________________________________________________ __________
Runners first and second.



3. Slow grounder in the infield R2 goes in to second standing up and is out on a close play. The athletic infielder makes a great play avoiding physical contact with R2(throw doesn't appear to be altered) and retires BR and R1 obviously scores.
__________________________________________________ __________
Nothing



4. No outs and nonone one base. BR hits one down the line for extra bases. BR does a pop up slide or goes in standing and makes contact (not malicious) or no contact with the fielder on third. The play is close but BR is clealy safe.
__________________________________________________ __________
You now have a R3.