Touching bases in legal order

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

Why?

Why not?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Why not?

Because the rule for passing a runner is only intended to apply during a live ball. (At least based on the penalty.)
________
1CherryLady

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

Because the rule for passing a runner is only intended to apply during a live ball. (At least based on the penalty.)

Citation please.

Speaking ASA

While the "ball remains" or "is live" subsequent to the rule being effected, I cannot find any published stipulation that the rule only applies to live-ball situations.

Now I think about it, I believe this was covered at the UIC Clinic this year using a MLB example from before they called it MLB. I believe the example used involved Tim McCarver hitting an over-the-fence grand slam on July 4, 1976 in Pittsburgh. Rounding 1B, he promptly passed Gary Maddox who was admiring the shot. Mr. All Talk, No Rules Knowledge was ruled out, credited with a single and three RBIs.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I believe the example used involved Tim McCarver hitting an over-the-fence grand slam on July 4, 1976 in Pittsburgh. Rounding 1B, he promptly passed Gary Maddox who was admiring the shot. Mr. All Talk, No Rules Knowledge was ruled out, credited with a single and three RBIs.

This has happened a few times. I recall Dalton Jones of the Red Sox doing the same thing and passed the runner at first base who was looking at the ball. Might have been against Detroit.

Then in a playoff game more recently, someone for the Mets hit a "grand slam single", w/ 3 rbi. I believe that one was a walk-off affair, and the extra run(s) didn't matter. Still, you'd think the player would like to "touch 'em all".

Ted

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Then in a playoff game more recently, someone for the Mets hit a "grand slam single", w/ 3 rbi. I believe that one was a walk-off affair, and the extra run(s) didn't matter. Still, you'd think the player would like to "touch 'em all".

I remember this. It was a walk-off in the 99 NLCS. He did touch first, and was trying to run the bases, but he got jumped by his teammates who came out of the dugout. The scoring decision: Single and 3 RBI for the batter. It was a HR, so the runners were entitled to advance to home, which they all did.

[AtlUmpSteve]

I see these examples as a pattern, a precedent; whether live or dead, whether bases touched in jeopardy or awarded, baserunning rules (touch bases, in legal order, no passing, no assistance by other than other runners not passing) must be honored, or violations are subject to penalty (if appealed when necessary). What runners must do in live ball play (reverse to allow a preceding runner to return without passing) must also apply when allowing a runner to "complete baserunning responsibilities". B2 MUST allow R1 to reverse without passing; yes, B2 would the runner ruled out.

The place I start to lose my definitive clarity is if/when an umpire should call any non-appealed baserunning violation during a dead ball, like passing the other runner while backtracking. Still a dead ball, can they still (or re-) fix the running violations? It hasn't happened to me, but I think, absent any definitive interpretation to the contrary (and I don't know of one), that I would react the same as a live ball violation, calling passing and/or assisting, and requiring an appeal if a missed base or out or order).

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by SethPDX

I remember this. It was a walk-off in the 99 NLCS. He did touch first, and was trying to run the bases, but he got jumped by his teammates who came out of the dugout. The scoring decision: Single and 3 RBI for the batter. It was a HR, so the runners were entitled to advance to home, which they all did.

I had the Dalton Jones thing wrong. Apparently he was playing for Detroit against the Red Sox. Wikipedia's got it all straight...

Grand Slam Single
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The Grand Slam Single is a reference to the hit that ended Game Five of the 1999 National League Championship Series between the New York Mets and the Atlanta Braves. The game was played on October 17, 1999 at Shea Stadium.

The game was tied 2-2 going into the top of the 15th inning, until Mets pitcher Octavio Dotel gave up an RBI triple to Keith Lockhart, giving the Braves a 3-2 lead.

In the bottom of the 15th inning, the Mets loaded the bases against Braves relief pitcher Kevin McGlinchy. Mets catcher Todd Pratt drew a bases loaded walk, tying the score 3-3.

The next batter was Mets third baseman Robin Ventura. Ventura crushed the 2-1 pitch over the wall in right-center for an ostensible grand slam, winning the game for the Mets and driving the Mets players and fans into a frenzied celebration. Ventura, however, never reached second base as Todd Pratt, the runner who was on first, picked up Ventura in celebration. Subsequently, Ventura was mobbed by his teammates, never finishing his trot around the bases. Because he failed to touch all four bases, the hit was officially scored a single. Roger Cedeno, the runner on third at the time, was ruled the only runner to have crossed home plate before the on-field celebration began and the Mets were awarded a 4-3 victory. Thus, Ventura was only credited with a single and one RBI. (It is worth noting that there has never been an actual game-winning grand slam home run in postseason history, as of 2008.)

Sports books in Las Vegas were put into an unusual situation with the "single" as a final score of 7-3 (the score that would have been had Ventura completed his trip around the bases) meant the game would have gone "over" the over/under line, which was 7 1/2. However, the final score actually put the game "under," meaning that many bettors that should have received payouts did not. [1]

The play remains as one of the most memorable moments in Mets postseason history.[citation needed] Orel Hershiser, who played on the 1999 Mets remarked, "It will be right up there with Kirk Gibson's home run, Carlton Fisk, Bucky Dent. This one will be on that tape with them."[citation needed] The Mets went on to lose the series to the Braves, who were in turn swept by the New York Yankees in the World Series.

According to Baseball-Reference.com, there have been at least two other instances of "grand slam singles." Both occurred when a batter hit a grand slam but subsequently passed the runner ahead of them on the base paths, which according to the rules of Major League Baseball causes the runner who passes his teammate to be called out. This happened on July 9, 1970, when Dalton Jones of the Detroit Tigers passed teammate Don Wert in a game against the Boston Red Sox, leaving him with a 3-RBI single. It also occurred on July 4, 1976, when Tim McCarver of the Philadelphia Phillies passed teammate Garry Maddox in a game against the Pittsburgh Pirates, leaving him with a 3-RBI single. In both cases, the other three runs still counted because only the player who passes his teammate is called out. The three baserunners are able to score [2]. Both of these hits took place with less than two outs.

[UmpireErnie]

In NFHS (High School) play, once a runner has advanced to the next base beyond the base missed or the base left-too-soon, she may not return if the ball becomes dead. See NFHS 2-1-6a. Once the ball goes out of play and the umpire declares a dead ball R1 is basically done. A dead ball appeal would be honored and R1 would be ruled out.

ASA seems a bit dicier. ASA 8-5G (2) on page 88 says that a runner cannot return once she has touched the first awarded base beyond the base missed or left-too-soon, but also says that runners must be given the opportunity to finish their base running duties prior to an award. As I read the ASA Rules Supplement on page 107 when the ball goes out of play the umpire should call a dead ball and wait to see if the runner is going to go back and touch the missed base or tag up at the base left-too-soon. If the runner does return then at that point you administer the awarded bases. Now if the defense wishes to make an appeal they may but it is too late since the runner did touch the base prior to the appeal. If the runner does not attempt to return, then make the award of the bases for the ball going out of play. Once the umpire verbally makes the award, and the runner has touched the next base beyond the base missed or left-too-soon, she may not return. The defense may appeal and the runner be ruled out.

While the umpire calling the dead ball may not have seen the missed base, his partner may have so it would seem that in ASA on any ball out of play the unpire should hesitate after declaring a dead ball and wait to see if the runner(s) are going to do any more base running.

I can’t find anything in print about the situation where R1 passes the BR who is on 3B after the ball goes out of play and R1 is going back to touch the missed 2B. The BR having to retreat to 2B so R1 can follow her and touch 2B makes sense, I guess in effect because her teammate missed 2B and still has “base running duties to perform” then the BR also still has “base running duties to perform” and could also retreat to 2B even though she had not herself missed a base or left-too-soon. Following all of that running around, the award would be made based on the runners location at the time of the throw not where they ended up after all this extra curricular activity.

But if R1 returns to 2B and passes the BR who does not backtrack ahead of R1 well then I just don’t know. ASA 8-7-D deals with passing another runner but says “the ball remains alive” so this appears to be only talking about passing another runner during a live ball and while running the bases in normal i.e. forward order. Still it does not seem as if R1s return to 2B is proper if she passes the BR at 3B to do it.

If I was on a field tonight and it happened I think I would honor an appeal on R1 since she did not properly go back to the missed based unless the BR went back ahead of her. And I think I would be very convincing about it and sound as if I knew what I was doing. But in effect it would be a “Rule 10” decision. So I am willing to be talked out of it by my peers. What do you think?

NFHS has this one tied up in a bow. College guys.. what does NCAA say?