Interference - Double Play

[wadeintothem]

ASA Rules with 1 out.

R1@1B who is stealing/hit and run and off on the pitch

High pop up to F5 who is set under the ball about 10' from 2B for the obvious easy catch and DP on the appeal - R1 hits into her, ball goes to the ground. I call dead ball and bang em both. End of inning. Offensive coach wanted DB 1 out and acknowledged that it was an easy DP, his runner was gone and "he picked the wrong time to steal".

Much debate ensued later (post game discussion) with other umpires who saw it as to whether that was appropriate... because they are arguing the wording of 8-2-F-Note essentially requires intent to break up a DP and I am more liberally applying it to mean an "action to prevent". Running into a set fielder making a catch would apply... and who knows maybe it was even intentional - but I was not judging intent on this. It was an obvious easy DP and she prevented it by interfering with the fielder .. So even if not intentional, I got 2 on that.

I realize the rule is essentially and acknowledge to them that the rule was written for the grounder type 6-4-3 double play (or whatever) - however within the spirit of the rules - an action like that taking out the obvious appeal DP applies (or essentially that type of action is rewarded).

What say you?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

ASA Rules with 1 out.

R1@1B who is stealing/hit and run and off on the pitch

High pop up to F5 who is set under the ball about 10' from 2B for the obvious easy catch and DP on the appeal - R1 hits into her, ball goes to the ground. I call dead ball and bang em both. End of inning. Offensive coach wanted DB 1 out and acknowledged that it was an easy DP, his runner was gone and "he picked the wrong time to steal".

Much debate ensued later (post game discussion) with other umpires who saw it as to whether that was appropriate... because they are arguing the wording of 8-2-F-Note essentially requires intent to break up a DP and I am more liberally applying it to mean an "action to prevent". Running into a set fielder making a catch would apply... and who knows maybe it was even intentional - but I was not judging intent on this. It was an obvious easy DP and she prevented it by interfering with the fielder .. So even if not intentional, I got 2 on that.

I realize the rule is essentially and acknowledge to them that the rule was written for the grounder type 6-4-3 double play (or whatever) - however within the spirit of the rules - an action like that taking out the obvious appeal DP applies (or essentially that type of action is rewarded).

What say you?

I say you got two outs, more power to you!

[JefferMC]

But... but... did either of them cry?

[ronald]

Does this not fall under the routine fair fly ball that could be easily caught with ordinary effort? Both are out.

To the rule book: look under 8.7.L exception-for the out on the batter and 8.7.J1 for the runner.

Think also that the umpires need to continue studying the rule book.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

ASA Rules with 1 out.

Are there different rules with no outs?

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

High pop up to F5 who is set under the ball about 10' from 2B

I told you in that other topic, F5 is very fast.

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

"he picked the wrong time to steal".

And here I thouht it was the wrong time to pop up.

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

what say you?

The INT is obvious, not a retired runner, but still killing a DP.

[ronald]

Wade,

8-2-F Note refers to the batter-runner. What gives?

I gotta go with your fellow umps if they are thinking of 8.7.J effect "...attempt to prevent a double play..." since running into the F4 (as described and my reading of the OP) does not meet my understanding of attempt:

1: to make an effort to do, accomplish, solve, or effect

Obviously, there has to be some type of thinking or thought (a decision) of I am going to do something to prevent a double play. I think this was absent from your description.

This leads to if you determine in a game that a runner has no idea what they are doing on the bases and they run into a fielder preventing a double play in your mind and you know they are clueless, .... hope that never happens. Sounds like rec ball to me.

Well maybe we can consider adding "action to prevent." What do you think Mike?





You got two outs, so way to go.


Ron

[wadeintothem]

Good catch - I quoted the wrong rule number. We were debating 8.7.J. Sorry, I just pulled up a PDF and searched for double play and didnt even read the rule before I posted the number. Definately not rec - 14A and this team will likely be in Georgia for nats. Good team.

[wadeintothem]

Also the coach of the team posts quite a bit on hey bucket and ezteams so it may get mentioned there as well since we know each other pretty good.

[ronald]

Wade,

My reference to rec ball was about a hypothetical. Sorry about the confusion.

Ron

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

Here is what I had in a 14U tournament a coupla years back, I was PU, my partner was pretty much a tyro:

ground ball to 2B, who gets possession of the ball just as R1 coming from 1st runs right into her, and maintains contact. My partner hesitates, so I kill the play, call R1 out on the tag, and then get the BR, as I felt R1 prevented 2B from making any additional play after being retired.

And yes, the Off coach was livid....and yes, they lost the game by one run...

Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE

Here is what I had in a 14U tournament a coupla years back, I was PU, my partner was pretty much a tyro:

ground ball to 2B, who gets possession of the ball just as R1 coming from 1st runs right into her, and maintains contact. My partner hesitates, so I kill the play, call R1 out on the tag, and then get the BR, as I felt R1 prevented 2B from making any additional play after being retired.

And yes, the Off coach was livid....and yes, they lost the game by one run...

Definition of tyro please? I'm playing some nasty insults on text messages with buddies this week, and need a good one or two to throw at them!

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Definition of tyro please? I'm playing some nasty insults on text messages with buddies this week, and need a good one or two to throw at them!

Tyro - in this case, nervous first year official

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Definition of tyro please?

Tyro is either the mother of Pelias and Neleus, the twin sons of Neptune, or a newbie.

My guess he meant newbie.

Ehhhh...tyro won't be funny with the morons I'm slamming this week, but at least it's a good one to know when I'm working with a newbie. Thanks fellas!

[wadeintothem]

Excuse me.. does any body speak jive?