Did I get this FLEX situation right?

[Dholloway1962]

Team playing DP/Flex. DP is batting in 6th batting position. For some reason unknown, the Flex bats thinking she is the 10th batter. The 9 hole batter bats and creates the 2nd out. The Flex then bats and grounds out for 3rd out. Defense approaches before all left field and points out that Flex batted.

Here's what I did: Flex became an Illegal Substitute for the 1 hole batter by batting improperly. The 1 hole batter has now left the game and is re-entered by coach. The Flex is DQ'd for the game. The 3rd out stands. The correct batter when this team comes back to bat is the 2 hole batter.

Did I get everything covered?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Team playing DP/Flex. DP is batting in 6th batting position. For some reason unknown, the Flex bats thinking she is the 10th batter. The 9 hole batter bats and creates the 2nd out. The Flex then bats and grounds out for 3rd out. Defense approaches before all left field and points out that Flex batted.

Here's what I did: Flex became an Illegal Substitute for the 1 hole batter by batting improperly. The 1 hole batter has now left the game and is re-entered by coach. The Flex is DQ'd for the game. The 3rd out stands. The correct batter when this team comes back to bat is the 2 hole batter.

Did I get everything covered?

I don't think this is the way I'd have called this but yours seems reasonable.

The flex cannot legally enter for the 1st batter, but could have legally entered for the 6th batter. I'd call this an unreported legal substitution out of order. I know there's a priority statement in the book, but not having it in reach I can't remember which way it goes. The DP has left the game, and the BOO is appealed so the 2 batter is correctly due up.
Besides changing which coach I'm going to be giving an explanation too, what else says that's not the way to do it.
________
NastyGirls19

[3SPORT]

Originally Posted by youngump

I don't think this is the way I'd have called this but yours seems reasonable.

The flex cannot legally enter for the 1st batter, but could have legally entered for the 6th batter. I'd call this an unreported legal substitution out of order. I know there's a priority statement in the book, but not having it in reach I can't remember which way it goes. The DP has left the game, and the BOO is appealed so the 2 batter is correctly due up.
Besides changing which coach I'm going to be giving an explanation too, what else says that's not the way to do it.

I agree with youngump and I do not see an illegal substitution as being what should be called. The flex is legally in the game and my understanding of an illegal sub would be someone who has used up their eligibility or has been ejected and then enters the game.

You have an unreported sub and then BOO.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Team playing DP/Flex. DP is batting in 6th batting position. For some reason unknown, the Flex bats thinking she is the 10th batter. The 9 hole batter bats and creates the 2nd out. The Flex then bats and grounds out for 3rd out. Defense approaches before all left field and points out that Flex batted.

Here's what I did: Flex became an Illegal Substitute for the 1 hole batter by batting improperly. The 1 hole batter has now left the game and is re-entered by coach. The Flex is DQ'd for the game. The 3rd out stands. The correct batter when this team comes back to bat is the 2 hole batter.

Did I get everything covered?

Dh,

I think you did a very creditable job there. I don't think it's a batting out of order, because the Flex was not entitled to bat except as a replacement for the DP. When she batted for anyone other than the DP it was an illegal substitution.

I'd say the person in the Flex position should be DQ'd [not the position, but maybe that's just how I'm reading it]. There would need to be a sub for the Flex, or the DP would play defense for the Flex.

I try to remember that Flex and DP can both be in the game on defense at the same time, but only one or the other can be on offense.

You might have had a situation with the DP and base and the Flex trying to knock her in.

Ted

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'd say the person in the Flex position should be DQ'd [not the position, but maybe that's just how I'm reading it]. There would need to be a sub for the Flex, or the DP would play defense for the Flex.

I meant the person playing the FLEX was DQ'd not the FLEX position. Didn't make that clear. The offending team had a sub and put her in for the original FLEX and we kept playing with 10.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Team playing DP/Flex. DP is batting in 6th batting position. For some reason unknown, the Flex bats thinking she is the 10th batter. The 9 hole batter bats and creates the 2nd out. The Flex then bats and grounds out for 3rd out. Defense approaches before all left field and points out that Flex batted.

Here's what I did: Flex became an Illegal Substitute for the 1 hole batter by batting improperly. The 1 hole batter has now left the game and is re-entered by coach. The Flex is DQ'd for the game. The 3rd out stands. The correct batter when this team comes back to bat is the 2 hole batter.

Did I get everything covered?

Flex is an Illegal Batter (4.7.F.2), is DQd and replaced with a legal sub, in this case the lead-off batter is reentered. The Unreported Sub rules (4.6.A-C1-C9) cover the remainder of the play.

Obviously, the IP cannot be considered legally in the game, but is declared out. Any runners returned to the base occupied at the TOP and all outs stand. (4.6.C.3)

Since this is covered by rule, I don't believe you can have a BOO here especially since the 3rd out of the inning has already occured. I would have the #1 batter as the lead-off for the next inning.

[Ed Maeder]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Flex is an Illegal Batter (4.7.F.2), is DQd and replaced with a legal sub, in this case the lead-off batter is reentered. The Unreported Sub rules (4.6.A-C1-C9) cover the remainder of the play.

Obviously, the IP cannot be considered legally in the game, but is declared out. Any runners returned to the base occupied at the TOP and all outs stand. (4.6.C.3)

Since this is covered by rule, I don't believe you can have a BOO here especially since the 3rd out of the inning has already occured. I would have the #1 batter as the lead-off for the next inning.

A sub for the Flex would also be necessary, in addition to the lead-off batter being re-entered. No sub, shorthanded. First batter next inning B2. The only thing I think you missed was sub for DQ'd flex.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

A sub for the Flex would also be necessary, in addition to the lead-off batter being re-entered. No sub, shorthanded. First batter next inning B2. The only thing I think you missed was sub for DQ'd flex.

Ed,

Sub for the Flex is not required. Could have one, but not required as the team line-up can legally drop to nine with the DP playing defense.

Tell me why B2. B1 did not miss their turn at bat if there was no BOO. The Flex, as an Illegal Player was retired by rule 4.6.C.3.Effect. Nowhere in Rule 4 or RS #15 does it state the Flex becoming an Illegal Batter would consitute batting out of order.

I know this has been a standard reaction by umpires (to go for a BOO), but I don't think it necessarily applies.

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Ed,

Tell me why B2. B1 did not miss their turn at bat if there was no BOO. The Flex, as an Illegal Player was retired by rule 4.6.C.3.Effect. Nowhere in Rule 4 or RS #15 does it state the Flex becoming an Illegal Batter would consitute batting out of order.

I (FWIW) think B2 because there was no BOO. Flex batted "for" B1, because there is no "B10." Aren't we doing a re-entry for B1?

If a pitch had been thrown, then 4.6.C.4 applies and we now have a runner on base; he's not the runner for B9, there is no B10, so he must be the runner for B1. B2 up. The only difference I see here is that the B1 slot is retired.

[wadeintothem]

Good scenario. I think I would have done the same as you before this thread.

I think you did correct by NFHS (3-3-6) but ASA has no provision for the correct batter losing their turn at bat over this issue. NFHS has that specific provision.

So NFHS correct batter is #2.
ASA correct batter is #1.
Umpire: headache.

Good job though. Tough call on complicated issue. We are learning all the time!

[Dakota]

Key item to keep in mind: by rule, if the FLEX bats in any position in the order other than for the DP, it is an illegal player (ASA) or illegal subsitute (NFHS). By rule. No option to make it a BOO.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Ed,

Sub for the Flex is not required. Could have one, but not required as the team line-up can legally drop to nine with the DP playing defense.

Tell me why B2. B1 did not miss their turn at bat if there was no BOO. The Flex, as an Illegal Player was retired by rule 4.6.C.3.Effect. Nowhere in Rule 4 or RS #15 does it state the Flex becoming an Illegal Batter would consitute batting out of order.

I know this has been a standard reaction by umpires (to go for a BOO), but I don't think it necessarily applies.

I'm not seeing this as a BOO, just an illegal (and unreported) substitution. The FLEX player batted illegally, as a sub for B1 and made an out. Would not matter if that player batted in any other spot that is not the DP, still an out. I don't see the B1/Bx spot getting another at bat after the out.

[marvin]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Sub for the Flex is not required. Could have one, but not required as the team line-up can legally drop to nine with the DP playing defense.

Putting the DP on defense for the Flex is a substitution and is required to be reported or you would have an unreported substitute (the FLEX has left the game). In the case discussed here a legal sub can later enter the game in the FLEX's spot in the lineup allowing the team to return to a ten player lineup. That's why I said in my other post either an eligible sub or the DP.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Tell me why B2. B1 did not miss their turn at bat if there was no BOO. The Flex, as an Illegal Player was retired by rule 4.6.C.3.Effect. Nowhere in Rule 4 or RS #15 does it state the Flex becoming an Illegal Batter would consitute batting out of order.

The Illegal Substitute Rule 3-4 Penalty states in part "The proper batter is considered to have lost her turn at bat."

NFHS casebook 3.4.2 Situation A covers this.

The above is based on NFHS softball rules.

[SRW]

Speaking ASA,

Case Play 4.6-5 may offer some guidance as to who comes to bat (B1 or B2). It would imply that B2 would...

...but I may be wrong.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by marvin

Putting the DP on defense for the Flex is a substitution and is required to be reported or you would have an unreported substitute (the FLEX has left the game). In the case discussed here a legal sub can later enter the game in the FLEX's spot in the lineup allowing the team to return to a ten player lineup. That's why I said in my other post either an eligible sub or the DP.

Moving the DP on defense simply means the FLEX has left the game, but does not meet the definition of a "substitute" to which is what I was referring.

The Illegal Substitute Rule 3-4 Penalty states in part "The proper batter is considered to have lost her turn at bat."

NFHS casebook 3.4.2 Situation A covers this.

The above is based on NFHS softball rules.

Thank you, but as you can see, I am referring strictly to ASA.