Did I get this FLEX situation right?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Team playing DP/Flex. DP is batting in 6th batting position. For some reason unknown, the Flex bats thinking she is the 10th batter. The 9 hole batter bats and creates the 2nd out. The Flex then bats and grounds out for 3rd out. Defense approaches before all left field and points out that Flex batted.

Here's what I did: Flex became an Illegal Substitute for the 1 hole batter by batting improperly. The 1 hole batter has now left the game and is re-entered by coach. The Flex is DQ'd for the game. The 3rd out stands. The correct batter when this team comes back to bat is the 2 hole batter.

Did I get everything covered?

Flex is an Illegal Batter (4.7.F.2), is DQd and replaced with a legal sub, in this case the lead-off batter is reentered. The Unreported Sub rules (4.6.A-C1-C9) cover the remainder of the play.

Obviously, the IP cannot be considered legally in the game, but is declared out. Any runners returned to the base occupied at the TOP and all outs stand. (4.6.C.3)

Since this is covered by rule, I don't believe you can have a BOO here especially since the 3rd out of the inning has already occured. I would have the #1 batter as the lead-off for the next inning.

[Ed Maeder]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Flex is an Illegal Batter (4.7.F.2), is DQd and replaced with a legal sub, in this case the lead-off batter is reentered. The Unreported Sub rules (4.6.A-C1-C9) cover the remainder of the play.

Obviously, the IP cannot be considered legally in the game, but is declared out. Any runners returned to the base occupied at the TOP and all outs stand. (4.6.C.3)

Since this is covered by rule, I don't believe you can have a BOO here especially since the 3rd out of the inning has already occured. I would have the #1 batter as the lead-off for the next inning.

A sub for the Flex would also be necessary, in addition to the lead-off batter being re-entered. No sub, shorthanded. First batter next inning B2. The only thing I think you missed was sub for DQ'd flex.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

A sub for the Flex would also be necessary, in addition to the lead-off batter being re-entered. No sub, shorthanded. First batter next inning B2. The only thing I think you missed was sub for DQ'd flex.

Ed,

Sub for the Flex is not required. Could have one, but not required as the team line-up can legally drop to nine with the DP playing defense.

Tell me why B2. B1 did not miss their turn at bat if there was no BOO. The Flex, as an Illegal Player was retired by rule 4.6.C.3.Effect. Nowhere in Rule 4 or RS #15 does it state the Flex becoming an Illegal Batter would consitute batting out of order.

I know this has been a standard reaction by umpires (to go for a BOO), but I don't think it necessarily applies.

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Ed,

Tell me why B2. B1 did not miss their turn at bat if there was no BOO. The Flex, as an Illegal Player was retired by rule 4.6.C.3.Effect. Nowhere in Rule 4 or RS #15 does it state the Flex becoming an Illegal Batter would consitute batting out of order.

I (FWIW) think B2 because there was no BOO. Flex batted "for" B1, because there is no "B10." Aren't we doing a re-entry for B1?

If a pitch had been thrown, then 4.6.C.4 applies and we now have a runner on base; he's not the runner for B9, there is no B10, so he must be the runner for B1. B2 up. The only difference I see here is that the B1 slot is retired.

[wadeintothem]

Good scenario. I think I would have done the same as you before this thread.

I think you did correct by NFHS (3-3-6) but ASA has no provision for the correct batter losing their turn at bat over this issue. NFHS has that specific provision.

So NFHS correct batter is #2.
ASA correct batter is #1.
Umpire: headache.

Good job though. Tough call on complicated issue. We are learning all the time!

[Dakota]

Key item to keep in mind: by rule, if the FLEX bats in any position in the order other than for the DP, it is an illegal player (ASA) or illegal subsitute (NFHS). By rule. No option to make it a BOO.

[Dholloway1962]

I had this occur in my 7th game of the day at about 10 PM!! Talk about a bad time for this to happen! I appreciate all the input, it was a confusing situation. It was an ASA game, but I do HS ball (in fall here) as well so I appreciate the HS rule being discussed as well. I just got my ASA book so I'm off to read it in my spare time today to see what I can figure out. Sounds like the only confusion is over if #1 or #2 should bat lead-off the next inning.

[Skahtboi]

Personally, I don't think that any umpire should be having a seventh game of the day on any day!

[KJUmp]

DH...great job handling it the way you did. Glad it wasn't me...and yes I now have the same headache Mark Di has.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Ed,

Sub for the Flex is not required. Could have one, but not required as the team line-up can legally drop to nine with the DP playing defense.

Tell me why B2. B1 did not miss their turn at bat if there was no BOO. The Flex, as an Illegal Player was retired by rule 4.6.C.3.Effect. Nowhere in Rule 4 or RS #15 does it state the Flex becoming an Illegal Batter would consitute batting out of order.

I know this has been a standard reaction by umpires (to go for a BOO), but I don't think it necessarily applies.

I'm not seeing this as a BOO, just an illegal (and unreported) substitution. The FLEX player batted illegally, as a sub for B1 and made an out. Would not matter if that player batted in any other spot that is not the DP, still an out. I don't see the B1/Bx spot getting another at bat after the out.

[marvin]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Sub for the Flex is not required. Could have one, but not required as the team line-up can legally drop to nine with the DP playing defense.

Putting the DP on defense for the Flex is a substitution and is required to be reported or you would have an unreported substitute (the FLEX has left the game). In the case discussed here a legal sub can later enter the game in the FLEX's spot in the lineup allowing the team to return to a ten player lineup. That's why I said in my other post either an eligible sub or the DP.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Tell me why B2. B1 did not miss their turn at bat if there was no BOO. The Flex, as an Illegal Player was retired by rule 4.6.C.3.Effect. Nowhere in Rule 4 or RS #15 does it state the Flex becoming an Illegal Batter would consitute batting out of order.

The Illegal Substitute Rule 3-4 Penalty states in part "The proper batter is considered to have lost her turn at bat."

NFHS casebook 3.4.2 Situation A covers this.

The above is based on NFHS softball rules.

[SRW]

Speaking ASA,

Case Play 4.6-5 may offer some guidance as to who comes to bat (B1 or B2). It would imply that B2 would...

...but I may be wrong.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

Speaking ASA,

Case Play 4.6-5 may offer some guidance as to who comes to bat (B1 or B2). It would imply that B2 would...

...but I may be wrong.

Sure, cite a case play on a day I don't have my disc

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Sure, cite a case play on a day I don't have my disc

And after reading his post, I went online and ordered one!

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Sure, cite a case play on a day I don't have my disc

Check your PM...