Scoring question

[CajunNewBlue]

I edited my post for obvious reasons... It was way too mean and uncalled for.

peace

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Relax, archer... I think you just touched a button with a number of the umpires here by asking a question that clearly sounded like a parent asking for a clarification that impacted their DD....

Which, as you can see, it clearly was.

Here's the message (from me, anyway): I'm not a scorekeeper. Keeping score is not the umpire's responsibility. Neither is mediating a dispute between Dad and the official / team / other pitcher's mommy scorekeeper. I don't care about scorekeeping. This is not a general softball forum, it is an umpire's forum.

Now, to the OP: go cook your DD's books elsewhere. Nice try with the LL attempt at an insult, but you completely missed the mark. That sort of "you're not a big dog" insult may work on the BB board, populated as it is with a bunch of ML Umpire wannabees and pretenders. But, "level" has nothing to do with it. Keeping score is not the umpire's job, whatever the level.

[Stu Clary]

Maybe keeping score is the umpire's responsibility at the level this clown works - he IS "on" official you know.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I've played, coached, been a league official several times, and now umpire. I've kept score, like some others have mentioned, both for my own games and for my son's Babe Ruth team when he was playing. I know how some people are about their kid's stats.

As the scorer in one of my son's games, a batter for our team came to bat with 2 outs and the bases loaded. He popped a routine fly ball to RF that the fielder dropped. My scoring: E9 3 base error; his dad's scoring: game winning 3 RBI triple.

SRW had it right for your scoring purposes. Some other examples:

BB followed by 3 WPs equals an earned run.
W/ 2 outs, batter reaches on E3. Next batter home run. Two unearned runs.
W/ 2 outs, batter reaches on E3. Pitching change. Next batter home run. One unearned run for previous pitcher, one earned run for new pitcher, two unearned runs for purposes of team ERA.
Batter triples, passed ball, runner scores. Batter doubles. No RBI, earned run charged.
Batter triples w/ no outs. Next two batters strike out. Next batter reaches on a D3K. Because batter reached, there must be a passed ball charged to the catcher or a wild pitch charged to the pitcher. This is official scorer's judgement. If a WP, run is earned; if a PB, run is unearned. [This assumes next batter is retired.]
Batter triples w/ two outs. Illegal pitch called. Run scores. Earned run.
W/ two outs, batter reaches on catcher obstruction [this is also an error charged to the catcher]. Next batter home run. Two unearned runs.
W/ two outs, batter fouls to F3 who drops the ball for an error. Batter subsequently gets a base hit. Next 3 batters walk. Next batter doubles in 3 runs but is thrown out stretching for 3B. Four unearned runs.
W/ one out, batter triples. Next batter walks. Runner from 1B attempts to steal 2B and catcher throws ball into center field for an error. Runner from 3B scores, runner from first holds at second base. Next 2 batters strike out. One unearned run.
W/ one out, batter triples. Next batter walks. Runner from 1B attempts to steal 2B and catcher throws ball into center field for an error. Runner from 3B scores, runner from first holds at second base. Next batter strikes out. Next batter singles, w/ runner from 2B scoring. Next batter strikes out. Two earned runs.
W/ two outs, batter doubles. Next batter singles to LF who throws home to try to retire the R from second base. Throw hits the R in the back and she scores. BR goes to second base on the error. Next batter strikes out. One unearned run.

Hope that helps.

Ted

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by archer

Pitcher throws a strike 3 looking pitch

What the heck is a strike 3 looking pitch

Either it was a strike or it wasn't! I can only assume that it was maybe a called 3rd strike?

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by archer

First of all I am on official, I spend my time on the BB thread b/c that is the sport I officiate. I came on here b/c my DD is the pitcher and I needed an explanation, not a bunch of smart *** LL umpire cute remarks.
If this part of the forum has turned into a self gratification dear abby column, then maybe I should be going to the straw hat mommy.

The question was posed as a serious question b/c it affects her ERA and she is wanting to go to college and pitch. There is a dispute in the ruling and I needed information from the experts. So unlike the Basketball thread I see that this SB thread is for basically rec league and LL umpires that think a smart *** answer is gonna make their buddies snicker.

It's "Dear Umpie" not "Dear Abby"
You got your answer so be happy and let her know the run was unearned. She should be happy too

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by archer

First of all I am on official, I spend my time on the BB thread b/c that is the sport I officiate. I came on here b/c my DD is the pitcher and I needed an explanation, not a bunch of smart *** LL umpire cute remarks.
If this part of the forum has turned into a self gratification dear abby column, then maybe I should be going to the straw hat mommy.

The question was posed as a serious question b/c it affects her ERA and she is wanting to go to college and pitch. There is a dispute in the ruling and I needed information from the experts. So unlike the Basketball thread I see that this SB thread is for basically rec league and LL umpires that think a smart *** answer is gonna make their buddies snicker.

You little ball guys are tho thenthitive.

[marvin]

Softball Scoring

The link above will download/open a pdf that pretty much covers all you'll need to know about scoring in softball.

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

What the heck is a strike 3 looking pitch

Either it was a strike or it wasn't! I can only assume that it was maybe a called 3rd strike?

Reading that particular post you reference, it sounds like a called 3rd strike at which the batter was gawking rather than swinging. Ya know, the ones the baseball guys make a show of calling where we softball guys only hammer and maybe call it a little louder than the other strikes.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Ya know, the ones the baseball guys make a show of calling where we softball guys only hammer and maybe call it a little louder than the other strikes.

But, but,but..... its a uncaught 3rd strike.... even baseball guys know not to pull the bow (or whatever) on that? don't they?

[greymule]

Some of the arbitrary and illogical scoring rules cited in Tru_in_Blu's post remind me of why I lost interest in scoring at about age 12.

You can make a great play and be charged with an error, and you can make a horrible play and not be charged. You can come in in relief and get shelled and end up with a win, and you can pitch well and be charged with a loss.

I liked the (unofficial) scoring rules when I played slow pitch. If you hit the ball and reached base, you were credited with a hit. If the outfielder kicked the ball and you made it so 2B, you were credited with a double. (That ball took a bad hop, didn't it?) Even the Trenton Statesmen (the pro team) followed those guidelines.

Years ago I saw the following very common play in a MLB game on TV. Runner on 2B. Batter lines a hit to RF. Runner tries to score, and F9 throws toward home, but way over the cutoff man. The BR, seeing the high throw, keeps running and reaches 2B safely as the run scores. The great scoring expert Joe Morgan explained that the batter is credited with a double because, after rounding 1B, he didn't slow down but continued directly to 2B.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by greymule

Some of the arbitrary and illogical scoring rules cited in Tru_in_Blu's post remind me of why I lost interest in scoring at about age 12.

You can make a great play and be charged with an error, and you can make a horrible play and not be charged. You can come in in relief and get shelled and end up with a win, and you can pitch well and be charged with a loss.

I liked the (unofficial) scoring rules when I played slow pitch. If you hit the ball and reached base, you were credited with a hit. If the outfielder kicked the ball and you made it so 2B, you were credited with a double. (That ball took a bad hop, didn't it?) Even the Trenton Statesmen (the pro team) followed those guidelines.

Years ago I saw the following very common play in a MLB game on TV. Runner on 2B. Batter lines a hit to RF. Runner tries to score, and F9 throws toward home, but way over the cutoff man. The BR, seeing the high throw, keeps running and reaches 2B safely as the run scores. The great scoring expert Joe Morgan explained that the batter is credited with a double because, after rounding 1B, he didn't slow down but continued directly to 2B.

Hi greymule,

I'll agree that scoring a particular play can certainly be arbitrary. I'm not sure I agree with the illogical assessment, though. Just as there are judgments that an umpire makes, there are judgments that scorers make. At the kid's rec level, or men's wreck level, allowances differ. When my son played as a 10 year old: someone blooped a ball to the outfield, and the outfielder overran it, then picked it up and tried to throw it anywhere, and someone else tracked it down and threw it somewhere, and finally the play was over because the batter had hit a "home run".

And in men's wreck, when F4 drops a popup, and the batter's standing on 1B grinning and begging for a basehit - "Didn't you see that tough hop it took?"

Not sure if your comment about the great scoring expert Joe Morgan was tongue in cheek or not. Given what you described, I have the batter w/ a run-scoring single [assuming the runner scored] and advancing to 2B on the throw.

But the "mommy's in straw hats" in general probably aren't so sophisticated or well versed in applying some of these judgments. Some will score a routine grounder that was muffed as a base hit; some will score a diving attempt my a fielder who got a glove on the ball, but didn't catch it, as an error. Maybe it depends upon which side of the field they're sitting on while scoring.

I've had parents ask me if a play was a hit/error, WP/PB, etc. I tell them that I can only rule on if a run counts at the end of a half inning and can't help them with their stats. It's mostly in good fun although I'm sure there are some parents who are just over the top with their kids' stats.

When Tony Conigliaro played in HS at St. Mary's in Lynn, MA, some believed that his stats were "cooked" to make him more attractive to potential colleges or major league scouts. As the home team books are considered official, perhaps he got the benefit of homer scoring. But there were also some rumors that if a batter got a hit in an inning and Tony C. didn't, the hit might just find it way onto Tony's linescore. Don't know if any of that is remotely true or not or just someone's sour grapes.

And of course in MLB the stats are the be all, end all. I agree that it's a bit strange to have a closer blow a save and through no offense on his part [mostly, unless he's batting in the NL] his team pushes across a run and he is credited with a win. That is neither arbitrary or illogical based on how the rules are written. I can see how it might be unfair to the starter who pitched 8 shutout innings and left with a 1-0 lead only to see the closer give up a dinger to tie the game. Such is life...

Ted

[Andy]

Originally Posted by archer

First of all I am on official, I spend my time on the BB thread b/c that is the sport I officiate. I came on here b/c my DD is the pitcher and I needed an explanation, not a bunch of smart *** LL umpire cute remarks.
If this part of the forum has turned into a self gratification dear abby column, then maybe I should be going to the straw hat mommy.

The question was posed as a serious question b/c it affects her ERA and she is wanting to go to college and pitch. There is a dispute in the ruling and I needed information from the experts. So unlike the Basketball thread I see that this SB thread is for basically rec league and LL umpires that think a smart *** answer is gonna make their buddies snicker.

Guys - I believe Archer's BB is referring to basketball, not baseball.

That being said, Mr. Archer - don't give me your sanctimonious high regard of the basketball forum, I've spent some time in there myself.

Try posting this question on the basketball forum;

"A player on the other team in my Men's rec league last night rebounded his own airball shot and the ref didn't call a travel. What the h*ll is wrong with these refs, anyway?"

and see how many smart-a** answers come back.

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

But, but,but..... its a uncaught 3rd strike.... even baseball guys know not to pull the bow (or whatever) on that? don't they?

Hopefully, if they're not crouched over, praying their cup blocked the ball!

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

SRW had it right for your scoring purposes.

Huh? I haven't said anything in this thread until now...?