Federation play

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yeah, but once she enters the dugout..........

You can't just hope no one notices, because you have to take a run off the board!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

You can't just hope no one notices, because you have to take a run off the board!

And that isn't a problem because by all rule sets of which I am aware, the batter runner just entered DBT. Yeah, I know there are some minor technicalities, but do you want something you can sell, or are you just going to stand there worrying about whether R1 was obstructed because of the hook slide?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Say, "Oh ****" to myself. Point to the ODB and say, "next batter" and hope the girl at the plate just walks into the dugout

Yeah, EXCEPT you now have 3 outs!

[ronald]

[QUOTE=IRISHMAFIA;588127]Say, "Oh ****" to myself.
That is what the umpire said.

I talked to my association's interpreter and the ruling was as MGK blue pointed out "that you can not advance during a dead ball".

He gave us this rulling in our clinic last Thursday based on a what if scenario he presented to the rules committee in Indiannopolis 2 years ago. He was actually involved in a play that he presented as the "what if".

The scenario.

Bases loaded, 2 outs, and 2 strikes on a left-handed batter. Next pitch, the batter does something with the bat, plate umpire calls it a ball but it got by the catcher and the runner from 3rd scored. After he cleans the plate, batter gets back in box, catcher and pitcher ready and catcher asks pu for help as to whether the batter swung at the last pitch. BU rules a strike. He ruled her out and no run scored for failure to advance. When he presented to the head honchos in Indy, they agreed with his ruling. Really not official as it was in a discussion. Best I can do guys.

After reading all the points and ideas presented, it sounds like an official ruling needs to be made.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ronald

I talked to my association's interpreter and the ruling was as MGK blue pointed out "that you can not advance during a dead ball".

Well, that is a pretty vague statement that generally is just not true. Runners and BRs routinely advance during a dead ball period.

He gave us this rulling in our clinic last Thursday based on a what if scenario he presented to the rules committee in Indiannopolis 2 years ago. He was actually involved in a play that he presented as the "what if".

The scenario.

Bases loaded, 2 outs, and 2 strikes on a left-handed batter. Next pitch, the batter does something with the bat, plate umpire calls it a ball but it got by the catcher and the runner from 3rd scored. After he cleans the plate, batter gets back in box, catcher and pitcher ready and catcher asks pu for help as to whether the batter swung at the last pitch. BU rules a strike. He ruled her out and no run scored for failure to advance. When he presented to the head honchos in Indy, they agreed with his ruling. Really not official as it was in a discussion. Best I can do guys.

And that is pretty good. As noted, lacking a definitive ruling, this is pretty much a common sense thing. In many cases, all participants are expected to be aware of general information like the count, outs and particular applications under specific game situations.

Let's look at the play again:

Bases loaded, 1 ball, 2 strikes. 2 outs. Next pitch is a strike that the catcher misses. The batter backs away from home plate, the runner from 3rd runs home and is safe on play at the plate. Pitcher covered. Umpire lets the dust settle, calls time, cleans the plate, looks up and sees the batter back to the side and rear of home plate.

First thing I thought was why wash there dust kicked up on a simple force play. I certainly hope that wasn't something overlooked by the umpire

The scenario doesn't indicate whether the third strike was swinging or called, so let's assume this is a case of the batter not knowing the count. The defense may not have known the count, but at least acted on a bad play. The umpire calls time when he has determined all play is finished which, IMO, would be a proper assumption if he scans the field and does not see any indication of an advancing runner or the defense attempting to retire another runner. Whether the umpire scans the field or not, he has killed the ball. And then the "Oh $hit" exception comes into play.

Like a fair/foul call on which an umpire is blocked out by a player/coach being someplace they are not supposed to be, the benefit of the call is going to the opponent of the team whose member caused the problem. In our case, this was the batter for either failing to know the count or just not being smart or coached well enough to know she should have run toward 1B.

That being the case, I would rule the BR out, discount the run scored and turn around and explain to the OC why s/he just had a run taken off the board. The fact that I errantly called time would allow for some humility on my part. However, at the end of the discussion, I'm going to feel comfortable with that ruling.

BTW, for those who would go the other way and place the BR on 1B, I don't believe that the BR has a right to 1B. I have always seen the U3K as a 'second-chance' situation. The player as already exhausted her alloted opportunities to put the ball into play and failed.

Just as the defense is required to earn the out they failed to achieve by not catching the pitch, IMO, the offense must be held to an equal level of responsibility in "earning" the right to negate the out caused by the batter's failure to put the ball into play by reaching 1B safely, not attaining it through award.

JMHO

[Tru_in_Blu]

The scenario.

Bases loaded, 2 outs, and 2 strikes on a left-handed batter. Next pitch, the batter does something with the bat, plate umpire calls it a ball but it got by the catcher and the runner from 3rd scored. After he cleans the plate, batter gets back in box, catcher and pitcher ready and catcher asks pu for help as to whether the batter swung at the last pitch. BU rules a strike. He ruled her out and no run scored for failure to advance. When he presented to the head honchos in Indy, they agreed with his ruling. Really not official as it was in a discussion.

Any possibility of this being ruled a timing play? My thinking is that before the appeal, a run scored. At that point in time, a ball had been called and the batter had yet to become a BR. On appeal is when she got her third strike as a result of the checked swing. So while she's standing in the batter's box, and the ball is live when she gets that news, is she entitled to run to 1B and force the defense to retire her before she gets there?


ASA: 5.5.B
No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A BR being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a BR. On an appeal play the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred.

NFHS: 9.1.1 Exception:
A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:
a. by the BR before touching first base;
b. by another runner being forced out:
c. by the preceding runner who is declared out because of failing to touch one of the base;
d. when a third out is declared on an appeal play resulting in a force out (This play takes precedence if enforcing of it would negate a score.);
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half-inning (the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage);
f. when a runner crosses home plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out.


NFHS item "d" above is interesting. If the batter does run and they tag her out or retire her at 1B, this does become an appeal resulting in a force out and would negate the run. If she walks away and goes into DB territory, and the defense does not throw to 1B for the force out, would the run count?

Ted

[ronald]

The idea with the batter did something with the bat was to indicate the pu did not think she made an attempt to hit the pitch. The bu did think so though. Sorry for the confusion.

Ron

[marvin]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

If she walks away and goes into DB territory, and the defense does not throw to 1B for the force out, would the run count?

Ted

No - because the out was still made by the BR before touching first base.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

The scenario.

Bases loaded, 2 outs, and 2 strikes on a left-handed batter. Next pitch, the batter does something with the bat, plate umpire calls it a ball but it got by the catcher and the runner from 3rd scored. After he cleans the plate, batter gets back in box, catcher and pitcher ready and catcher asks pu for help as to whether the batter swung at the last pitch. BU rules a strike. He ruled her out and no run scored for failure to advance. When he presented to the head honchos in Indy, they agreed with his ruling. Really not official as it was in a discussion.

Any possibility of this being ruled a timing play? My thinking is that before the appeal, a run scored. At that point in time, a ball had been called and the batter had yet to become a BR. On appeal is when she got her third strike as a result of the checked swing. So while she's standing in the batter's box, and the ball is live when she gets that news, is she entitled to run to 1B and force the defense to retire her before she gets there?


ASA: 5.5.B
No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A BR being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a BR. On an appeal play the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred.

NFHS: 9.1.1 Exception:
A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:
a. by the BR before touching first base;
b. by another runner being forced out:
c. by the preceding runner who is declared out because of failing to touch one of the base;
d. when a third out is declared on an appeal play resulting in a force out (This play takes precedence if enforcing of it would negate a score.);
e. when there is more than one out declared by the umpire which terminates the half-inning (the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage);
f. when a runner crosses home plate after a preceding runner is declared the third out.


NFHS item "d" above is interesting. If the batter does run and they tag her out or retire her at 1B, this does become an appeal resulting in a force out and would negate the run. If she walks away and goes into DB territory, and the defense does not throw to 1B for the force out, would the run count?

Ted

First of all, it was not an appeal. It was an umpire going to his partner for help on a call. Even though it is commonly called an appeal, it is not an appeal play.

Second, a BR was out for the third out before reaching 1B. No runs score.

Third, in the situation presented, why did the PU even ask his partner about the swing?