First Game of the Year: Brutal.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Bottom line is simple; that play at 1B belongs to the base umpire. Make a friggin' call!! Your call, your responsibility, make it!! If you think you need help, you can get it, but MAKE YOUR CALL!!

This play is the perfect example why. The call belongs to BU; PU has "help" responsibility for pulled foot and swipe tag. Primary, secondary. Primary now reassigns the call to secondary who was blocked. WRONG!! Secondary now has to answer why he didn't see what wasn't his primary responsibility, while primary gets away with reassigning his responsibility?? Bull$hit. Make YOUR call. If there is help, you can get it, if there isn't help, it was your call.

This has been discussed a few times. Some disagree with it, and that is fine as long as they are working the game where there is another prescribed mechanic. Call what you saw and IF there is help, you can utilize that tool (the mechanic, not the partner ) afterward.

Once an umpire gives up a call, if the partner didn't have a good view, the ONLY call that can be made is SAFE.

In my postgame, that would have been said in spades; and you are buying the beer (and that can be expensive when I'm drinking).

Not if your girlfriend (Ruthann?) is serving

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Not if your girlfriend (Ruthann?) is serving

Admittedly, Ruthann has been good to me/us. That's only good for 3 days every other year, though, since I don't live in OKC.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by atlumpsteve

i was waiting to see if anyone else would comment, but no. Personally, i completely disagree with an umpire that doesn't make his call as required by the mechanics.

Bottom line is simple; that play at 1b belongs to the base umpire. Make a friggin' call!! Your call, your responsibility, make it!! If you think you need help, you can get it, but make your call!!

This play is the perfect example why. The call belongs to bu; pu has "help" responsibility for pulled foot and swipe tag. Primary, secondary. Primary now reassigns the call to secondary who was blocked. Wrong!! Secondary now has to answer why he didn't see what wasn't his primary responsibility, while primary gets away with reassigning his responsibility?? Bull$hit. Make your call. If there is help, you can get it, if there isn't help, it was your call.

In my postgame, that would have been said in spades; and you are buying the beer (and that can be expensive when i'm drinking). Do it a second time, and my answer isn't "no tag", my response is "your call!!".

amen

[SRW]

Steve/all:
Yeah, my partner and I had a little discussion about that after the game. I know that it's specifically in the ASA umpire's manual page 245:

If you think that you were blocked out of seeing the entire play and are
asked to “go for help” then go to your partner for information to get the
call correct. ALWAYS MAKE THE CALL AND THEN GO FOR HELP, IF NEEDED

Don't know if it's in the CCA manual or not...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

Steve/all:
Yeah, my partner and I had a little discussion about that after the game. I know that it's specifically in the ASA umpire's manual page 245:

If you think that you were blocked out of seeing the entire play and are
asked to “go for help” then go to your partner for information to get the
call correct. ALWAYS MAKE THE CALL AND THEN GO FOR HELP, IF NEEDED

Don't know if it's in the CCA manual or not...

Some organizations tell you to go for help first, but something like what happens to you occurs and, oops, there is no one to make a call and runners are still moving around the bases.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I was waiting to see if anyone else would comment, but no. Personally, I completely disagree with an umpire that doesn't make his call as required by the mechanics.

Bottom line is simple; that play at 1B belongs to the base umpire. Make a friggin' call!! Your call, your responsibility, make it!! If you think you need help, you can get it, but MAKE YOUR CALL!!

This play is the perfect example why. The call belongs to BU; PU has "help" responsibility for pulled foot and swipe tag. Primary, secondary. Primary now reassigns the call to secondary who was blocked. WRONG!! Secondary now has to answer why he didn't see what wasn't his primary responsibility, while primary gets away with reassigning his responsibility?? Bull$hit. Make YOUR call. If there is help, you can get it, if there isn't help, it was your call.

In my postgame, that would have been said in spades; and you are buying the beer (and that can be expensive when I'm drinking). Do it a second time, and my answer isn't "no tag", my response is "YOUR CALL!!".

Steve - I am going to respectfully disagree with you to a point.

In SRW's play the BU was not giving up his call, he was asking for the last piece of the puzzle he needed to make the call. Coming from C position in a two-umpire system, the angle for that is terrible, as I'm sure you are aware. The BU is asking a yes or no question to get that last piece of information to make the call. This is actually the way that Emily taught me as I was learning many years ago. I understand that the philosphy has changed somewhat as evidenced by the quote from the ASA book.

I completely agree that the BU should not point to the PU and completely give up the call, however, I don't see the issue with asking the BU for that last piece of information needed.

That being said, Mike's point about baserunners still moving around the bases is valid and if that is the case the BU needs to be aware and make a call at first, let the play finish, then go for help if needed.

I'm saying that this method is useful on a case-by-case basis.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

Steve - I am going to respectfully disagree with you to a point.

In SRW's play the BU was not giving up his call, he was asking for the last piece of the puzzle he needed to make the call. Coming from C position in a two-umpire system, the angle for that is terrible, as I'm sure you are aware. The BU is asking a yes or no question to get that last piece of information to make the call. This is actually the way that Emily taught me as I was learning many years ago. I understand that the philosphy has changed somewhat as evidenced by the quote from the ASA book.

I completely agree that the BU should not point to the PU and completely give up the call, however, I don't see the issue with asking the BU for that last piece of information needed.

That being said, Mike's point about baserunners still moving around the bases is valid and if that is the case the BU needs to be aware and make a call at first, let the play finish, then go for help if needed.

I'm saying that this method is useful on a case-by-case basis.

If you are coming from the C position, there are ALWAYS other baserunners, so when could you use this without them being affected? There is always the potential for subsequent plays with other runners.

That aside, do you really believe the teams and coaches see this as anything beyond the base umpire having the plate umpire make the call? Do they see this "last piece of information", or completely giving up the call?

Let's ask SRW what happened in this specific case, when the coach decided to converse. I am willing to bet he focused on the PU, whom he saw as missing the call, not the BU whose call it was.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

If you are coming from the C position, there are ALWAYS other baserunners, so when could you use this without them being affected? There is always the potential for subsequent plays with other runners.

Agreed....there will always be runner(s) at second and/or third base. However, in the specific situation we are discussing, we more than likely have a banger at first base. Most, not all, of the time, the runners will advance a base safely or hold on the base they are at without a subsequent play. This is why I made the statement that the BU needs to be aware of the potential of a subsequent play and react accordingly.

That aside, do you really believe the teams and coaches see this as anything beyond the base umpire having the plate umpire make the call? Do they see this "last piece of information", or completely giving up the call?

As with most things concerning the mechanics of umpiring, I really don't care what the teams and coaches see or think about how we do our job, It's really not something they need or want to understand.

Let's ask SRW what happened in this specific case, when the coach decided to converse. I am willing to bet he focused on the PU, whom he saw as missing the call, not the BU whose call it was.

Do you think the outcome would have been any different if the BU had made (perhaps guessed) a call, then went to SRW for help and reversed his call? It comes down to the same conversation..."Coach, I had a (bad angle, blocked out, etc.) I asked my partner for help and made (or reversed) the call based on that information." PU's response to any question from the coach should be "Coach, my partner asked if I saw a (pulled foot, tag, etc) and I told him what I saw."

Although there are many times when going to your partner for help after making a call is appropriate, I believe that anytime a coach can get an umpire to go for help and reverse a call, even if it is valid, sends a message that the coach (of either team) can now go ask the umpire to get help on any call that s/he doesn't like. Coaches generally don't differentiate judgement calls from calls where an umpire may have not seen a piece of the play that his partner was able to.

Again, I'm not saying that going for help prior to making the call is the way it should be done in every instance, but it is a tool that the umpire can use when appropriate.

[topper]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I was waiting to see if anyone else would comment, but no. Personally, I completely disagree with an umpire that doesn't make his call as required by the mechanics.

Bottom line is simple; that play at 1B belongs to the base umpire. Make a friggin' call!! Your call, your responsibility, make it!! If you think you need help, you can get it, but MAKE YOUR CALL!!

This play is the perfect example why. The call belongs to BU; PU has "help" responsibility for pulled foot and swipe tag. Primary, secondary. Primary now reassigns the call to secondary who was blocked. WRONG!! Secondary now has to answer why he didn't see what wasn't his primary responsibility, while primary gets away with reassigning his responsibility?? Bull$hit. Make YOUR call. If there is help, you can get it, if there isn't help, it was your call.

In my postgame, that would have been said in spades; and you are buying the beer (and that can be expensive when I'm drinking). Do it a second time, and my answer isn't "no tag", my response is "YOUR CALL!!".

Agreed. This is one instance where I prefer the ASA mechanic over the NCAA mechanic. BU makes the call, then goes for help if needed, and ,more importantly, discusses HIS/HER call with coach.

[topper]

Originally Posted by Andy

Although there are many times when going to your partner for help after making a call is appropriate, I believe that anytime a coach can get an umpire to go for help and reverse a call, even if it is valid, sends a message that the coach (of either team) can now go ask the umpire to get help on any call that s/he doesn't like. Coaches generally don't differentiate judgement calls from calls where an umpire may have not seen a piece of the play that his partner was able to.

And as I'm sure you know, here's where good umpiring comes in. You either need help or you don't; regardless of what message the coach feels he was sent. If I'm not missing something, I'm not going for help unless required to by rule.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Here's the problem, Andy.

That BU did give up the call by not making one. He shouted across the field that he did not see a tag. That means the PU who may not be in a position to help, must make the call or, by default, the runner is safe. God help.....no, even God isn't going to be able to help an umpire who openly asks for help, doesn't get any and calls the runner out. Sort of like pointing to a players glove, "show me the ball", the player opens the glove and shows it and then the umpire calling the runner safe!

My tenet has become "make the call what your eyes thought they saw." Apparently, the BU saw something to make him think there was a tag and then doubted his eyes. Unless completely taken out of the play, I will always make the call.

I do not care what a coach/player/fan thinks, if there is a possibility that I missed something, I'll go for help if requested. If you have coaches who believe that is a license to make such a request on any play and you allow it to happen, that's the umpire's fault. If there is no doubt you were in the best position and saw all the elements, just say no. And, more often than not, I've had a coach/player thank the crew for getting together even if they didn't get the call being sought.

[SRW]

You want the rest of the conversation? Sure. I've had coffee today, so I'm allowed to post.

DC asked for time, I gave it. He came straight to me. He was cordial and calm the whole time.

He: You didn't see F3 tag the BR?
Me: No sir. Your F2 blocked me.
He: What DID you see?
Me: I saw F3 pulled to her left, she caught the ball, then all I saw was the backside of F2.
He: Oh. So is it still his call to make? (pointing to my partner)
Me: Yes sir. He asked me for some information and I gave him what I could. I can't call what I can't see.
He: Can I talk to him about his call?
Me: Please do, coach.

DC then went to my partner to talk. DC asked if he saw F3 come off the base. BU said yeah, but he couldn't tell if the tag got the BR, so he asked if I saw it. BU told DC that neither of us saw a tag, so the BR is safe at 1B.

DC walked back to his dugout and didn't say anything more.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

DC walked back to his dugout and didn't say anything more.

Apparently, the DC didn't have his daily caffeine fix for the day

[rwest]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I was waiting to see if anyone else would comment, but no. Personally, I completely disagree with an umpire that doesn't make his call as required by the mechanics.

Bottom line is simple; that play at 1B belongs to the base umpire. Make a friggin' call!! Your call, your responsibility, make it!! If you think you need help, you can get it, but MAKE YOUR CALL!!

This play is the perfect example why. The call belongs to BU; PU has "help" responsibility for pulled foot and swipe tag. Primary, secondary. Primary now reassigns the call to secondary who was blocked. WRONG!! Secondary now has to answer why he didn't see what wasn't his primary responsibility, while primary gets away with reassigning his responsibility?? Bull$hit. Make YOUR call. If there is help, you can get it, if there isn't help, it was your call.

In my postgame, that would have been said in spades; and you are buying the beer (and that can be expensive when I'm drinking). Do it a second time, and my answer isn't "no tag", my response is "YOUR CALL!!".

Isn't this one of the differences between ASA and FED mechanics? I don't have my FED books with me. I remember from last years on field training we had that the FED wants the base umpire to go to the PU for help on this. I agree with you Steve. The base umpire should make the call. I don't like giving up my responsibilities to someone else. I prefer the ASA mechanic on this one.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by rwest

Isn't this one of the differences between ASA and FED mechanics? I don't have my FED books with me. I remember from last years on field training we had that the FED wants the base umpire to go to the PU for help on this. I agree with you Steve. The base umpire should make the call. I don't like giving up my responsibilities to someone else. I prefer the ASA mechanic on this one.

Randall, if that is what you heard here is Georgia, someone erred. We have adopted ASA mechanics for high school. So the umpire manual is moot.