Is this right ?

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

You know, I have heard this interpretation before, but I have never been able to reconcile it with NFHS 6-1-f-2, that says "when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitcher's plate with both feet;"

Can someone show me a rule or official written interpretation (other than XXY said so) that says this rule regarding pitch preliminaries does NOT apply when the pitcher steps on the pitcher's plate with hands together?

Honestly, without that (a contradictory rule, or a written interpretation), I can't see how stepping on with hands together cannot be remedied by stepping off. If it can still be remedied, then it isn't YET illegal. That means it isn't illegal until either 1) the hands separate, or 2) some part of the windup motion begins. If that (last sentence) remains true, then it is both possible and appropriate that a DDB be called, since the pitch has begun, and the scenario posed would remain in effect.

yeah but, isnt this in regards to a sequence of events? that must take place in a certain order?.... and there is the assumption that the pitcher came to the plate hands separated, then placed them together... then could legally step off with both feet? (i prefer either foot first then the other) because i get this mental image of the pitcher trying to step off with both feet at the same time (kinda bunny hopping backwards) but i digress.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

If this were right, then it is not a delayed dead ball. If the pitch isn't illegal yet, then there's no dead ball to delay. If a pitch isn't illegal when a runner leaves early, then it has no opportunity to become illegal.

I think you aren't fully following me. When a pitcher steps on with hands together, I have nothing yet; as stated above. If she steps back off, she has remedied the situation, and we start again (although the 20 second count between pitches continues). If she doesn't step off, when that pitcher separates, or starts a windup motion (NFHS only), it becomes (then) an illegal pitch. Since the pitch has started, by rule, you call the illegal pitch, and must signal a delayed dead ball, allowing the pitcher to continue, if she wishes.

If the runner leaves early, this wasn't caused by the illegal pitch; the runner is not permitted to leave until release, and the only illegal pitch that would cause the runner to violate would be a pitcher faking a pitch and holding on to the ball. The rulesmakers of ASA, NFHS (MS) and NCAA (DA) actually conferenced on this possible play, and recognized that if runners could leave early on an illegal pitch without penalty, that runners would be released and possibly halfway or more to the next base, disrupting the defense with an unfair advantage gained, and conceivably creating favorable "options" that far exceed the scope or intent of the illegal pitch penalty.

Same ruling applies in all 3 associations. While you penalize the illegal pitch, you also penalize the "leaving early". Since part of the leaving early results in a "no pitch", there is no offensive option. The runner that left early is out, a ball on the batter, and any [B]other[B] runners advance 1 base.

In any event, a smart coach will teach his pitcher to stop pitching (when she isn't too far into her motion) if she hears the words "illegal pitch" from an umpire. Continuing only gives the offense better options or better results than the IP penalty. And, no umpire looks at baserunners leaving when the pitcher stops and doesn't pitch.

[AtlUmpSteve]

t

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

yeah but, isnt this in regards to a sequence of events? that must take place in a certain order?.... and there is the assumption that the pitcher came to the plate hands separated, then placed them together... then could legally step off with both feet? (i prefer either foot first then the other) because i get this mental image of the pitcher trying to step off with both feet at the same time (kinda bunny hopping backwards) but i digress.

The best answers I can give you are that a) the rule doesn't actually say that sequence can't be remedied by stepping off before starting the pitch, b) in fact, the issue of stepping off is listed last in that sequence, leading me to believe it can be used up until that time, and c) after years of rule changes and clarifications, the rule has never exactly said it is an illegal pitch if the pitcher steps on with hands together. We only know it cannot be a legal pitch if the sequence isn't followed, or the pitcher stops the sequence by legally stepping off.

By the way, the "with both feet" intends to decribe that the pitcher must completely disengage if both feet were in contact. Otherwise, the one foot stepping back could be construed as starting the legal pitching motion in NFHS. The next rule, 6-1-f-3 says that either foot may step back first (unlike small ball, which I believe requires the pivot foot to disengage first).

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

You know, I have heard this interpretation before, but I have never been able to reconcile it with NFHS 6-1-f-2, that says "when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitcher's plate with both feet;"

Can someone show me a rule or official written interpretation (other than XXY said so) that says this rule regarding pitch preliminaries does NOT apply when the pitcher steps on the pitcher's plate with hands together?

Ok how's this?
NFHS 6-1-1-a Prior to pitching, the pitcher MUST........., and with the hands separated.
so if she doesn't meet this, its a illegal pitch... even if she brings the hands together and then legally disengages the plate? yes? or am i totally not understanding what your asking?

I kinda feel like the guy who brought a knife to a gun fight when talking rules with y'all.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

Ok how's this?
NFHS 6-1-1-a Prior to pitching, the pitcher MUST........., and with the hands separated.
so if she doesn't meet this, its a illegal pitch... even if she brings the hands together and then legally disengages the plate? yes? or am i totally not understanding what your asking?

I kinda feel like the guy who brought a knife to a gun fight when talking rules with y'all.

OK; but "prior to pitching". The act of disengaging (stepping off) means the action wasn't prior to pitching.

Let me ask it this way. Many pitchers like to keep the pitching plate clean, and between pitches, use their foot to sweep it clean. I think it is safe to say that we differentiate that contact from the preliminary to pitch by the fact that she then steps back off, prior to formally stepping on to start the required sequence. You would not invoke any preliminary pitching requirements, that she didn't have shoulders facing properly, that she didn't come to a full stop, that she didn't then immediately pitch. Why not? Because she legally stepped off; if she stayed there and then started a pitch, you would call it illegal. Suppose she had her hands together while using her foot to clear the plate? Is that different? Would you call that action an illegal pitch? I speculate (and surely hope) not; you would allow her to step off, disengage, restart under the sequence, legally engage.

Prior to pitching isn't an action that can be designated as concluded until the pitch begins; then the action to that point was prior to the pitch. It (prior) starts with engaging the plate, it (prior) ends when the pitch starts. Pitchers may legally disengage and restart by stepping off; that option is available when the hands are brought together (last in the required sequence) as long as the pitch hasn't started, no matter what else might happen wrong preliminary to the pitch, so far as I can tell. How/why is that option not available when the hands are together while stepping on?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NFHS 2009 Case Book

6.1.1 SITUATION A: (F.P.) May F1 take her pitching position with her hands already together? RULING: No. F1 's hands shall be apart when she steps onto the pitcher's plate. Therefore, this is an illegal pitch. (6-1-1a)

Says nothing about starting the pitch.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

OK; but "prior to pitching". The act of disengaging (stepping off) means the action wasn't prior to pitching.

Let me ask it this way. Many pitchers like to keep the pitching plate clean, and between pitches, use their foot to sweep it clean. I think it is safe to say that we differentiate that contact from the preliminary to pitch by the fact that she then steps back off, prior to formally stepping on to start the required sequence. You would not invoke any preliminary pitching requirements, that she didn't have shoulders facing properly, that she didn't come to a full stop, that she didn't then immediately pitch. Why not? Because she legally stepped off; if she stayed there and then started a pitch, you would call it illegal. Suppose she had her hands together while using her foot to clear the plate? Is that different? Would you call that action an illegal pitch? I speculate (and surely hope) not; you would allow her to step off, disengage, restart under the sequence, legally engage.

Prior to pitching isn't an action that can be designated as concluded until the pitch begins; then the action to that point was prior to the pitch. It (prior) starts with engaging the plate, it (prior) ends when the pitch starts. Pitchers may legally disengage and restart by stepping off; that option is available when the hands are brought together (last in the required sequence) as long as the pitch hasn't started, no matter what else might happen wrong preliminary to the pitch, so far as I can tell. How/why is that option not available when the hands are together while stepping on?

Well, that was a very well thought out and eloquently typed out argument, and me showing up with my knife... lol.

All I can retort with is that I know an illegal pitch when i see one and i know when she is cleaning off the plate when i see it.
And if she steps on the rubber with her hands together i'm making this call regardless if she finishes the pitch or if she disengages. Because at the end of ART1 the penalty for failure to do anything exactly how its spelled out in 6-1-1-a thru f is to call an illegal pitch and I will deal with the coach in a professional manner when questioned.

ie: pitcher has one foot on the rubber, hands together, she then proceeds to fill in a little divot in front of the rubber. she is satisfied with her landscaping duties and then places landscaping foot behind rubber and does not disengage with other foot, she then moves on to simulate taking of signal or actually takes a signal (im in illegal pitch mode) she then thinks ok i need a moment and disengages. thats an illegal pitch.
I am taking liberties with assuming what she is thinking, but i am judging her by her actions.

gotta go Duke is winning.

[DeRef]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

gotta go Duke is winning.

Yeah, but you don't get a W for leading at halftime. How 'bout them Heels baby!!! However, it was an excellent, well played game by both teams.

Sorry for the off-topic post

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by DeRef

Yeah, but you don't get a W for leading at halftime. How 'bout them Heels baby!!! However, it was an excellent, well played game by both teams.

Sorry for the off-topic post

yep... was, still dont agree with that T for the elbow... looked like his hand slipped off the ball during the scrum. but then again im biased.

[Dakota]

Why would someone from Cajun territory be a Dookie? Just askin'.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I've done ASA for a few years now. This year I'm also trying to get certified for NFHS and we're doing our training this month.

There are some differences in the pitching rules between the two associations, as I'm sure most of you are already aware.

On this year's ASA test, question 15FP:
"The pitcher may step on the pitcher's plate with their hands together as long as they separate them to take a signal before starting the pitch."

If this was an NFHS question, I'd say "false" because of:
6.1.1.a "Prior to pitching, the pitcher must take a postion with shoulders in line with first and third base with the ball in the glove or pitching hand, and with the hands separated."

PENALTY: (Art. 1) An illegal pitch is called.

Since this is an ASA question, it requires a bit more applied logic to decipher the ruling, as the ASA wording is not as specific as NFHS.

6.1.D "While on the pitcher's plate, the pitcher shall take the signal or appear to take a signal with the hands separated. The ball must remain in either the glove or pitching hand."

...then...

6.2 Starting the Pitch.
"The pitch starts when one hand is taken off the ball after the hands have been placed together."

So in the ASA wording, if the pitcher who arrived on the pitcher's plate with hands together separates the hands to take a signal, by definition she has already started the pitch. If she follows through with the pitch, assuming there was no signal given/taken, maybe that's legal. But if she separates the hands to take a signal, and puts the hands together again to start the pitch, I'd say that was illegal.

BTW, the wording of "when one hand is taken off the ball" is technically incorrect also. Since one hand has a softball glove on it, there's really only one "hand" available. And a pitch cannot be delivered from the glove. If she took her "available" hand off the ball the ball would remain in the glove or fall to the ground. Maybe better wording might be something like: "The pitch starts when the pitcher removes the ball from the glove or otherwise disengages contact with the glove hand." (I'd occasionally hold the ball behind the glove while presenting an empty glove to the batter until beginning the pitching motion.)

Ted

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

On this year's ASA test, question 15FP:
"The pitcher may step on the pitcher's plate with their hands together as long as they separate them to take a signal before starting the pitch."

Since this is an ASA question, it requires a bit more applied logic to decipher the ruling, as the ASA wording is not as specific as NFHS.

Ted

OK, I'll bite. (My philosophy that stepping back off being a remedy notwithstanding.) How is the new rule 6.1-a not crystal clear in itself?

"The pitcher must take the pitching position on the pitcher's plate with hands separated and the ball in the glove or the pitcher's hand."

No exceptions. No applied deciphering. Separating them after engaging isn't taking the position with them separate.

(But, I still contend that she can step off before she separates to remedy. That ends the action and makes her prior engagement NOT taking a pitching position.)

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

If she follows through with the pitch, assuming there was no signal given/taken, maybe that's legal.
Ted

Nope. The pitcher shall take (or simulate taking) a signal. If she doesn't it doesn't much matter what she did with her hands.
________
Ophelie live

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

...(But, I still contend that she can step off before she separates to remedy. That ends the action and makes her prior engagement NOT taking a pitching position.)

Speaking NFHS, what do you do with the case play I cited above? The case play states that once she steps onto the plate with the hands together, it is an IP.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I've done ASA for a few years now. This year I'm also trying to get certified for NFHS and we're doing our training this month.

There are some differences in the pitching rules between the two associations, as I'm sure most of you are already aware.

On this year's ASA test, question 15FP:
"The pitcher may step on the pitcher's plate with their hands together as long as they separate them to take a signal before starting the pitch."...

In prior year's ASA had a set of requirements that, taken together, meant the pitcher must not step onto the plate with the hands together.

She must, while on the plate:
1) Take the signals (or pretend to) with the hands separated;
2) Bring the hands together for 1-10 seconds;
3) Separate the hands to begin the pitch;
4) Not bring the hands together a second time;

Taken together, it was not possible to do all of this if the hands were together when the pitcher stepped onto the plate.

The change only clarifies this.

Originally Posted by ASA 2009 Playing Rule Changes

Rule 6 Section 1 A Fast Pitch and Modified: The pitcher must take the position on the pitcher’s plate with the hands separated and the ball in the glove or the pitcher's hand.
Comment: This only clarifies a rule that Fast Pitch and Modified umpires have enforced for years.