Is this right ?

[Chess Ref]

So at the local HS meeting last night and the following ruling came up.

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. F1 steps on the pitchers plate with the hands together, so we have an illegal pitch.

Before F1 releases the ball,during the illegal pitch, R2 leaves the base early so we now have a dead ball.

The ruling we got was R1 is awarded home and R2 is an out for leaving early...

Have this already been discussed here and I can't find it ?

Did you guys/gals cover this in OKC ? Cause thats where this seems to be coming from.

Any feedback on this would be helpful....

[Andy]

I will take a shot...

Since you mentioned a HS clinic....I will reference HS rules.

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. F1 steps on the pitchers plate with the hands together, so we have an illegal pitch.

Once she has done this, there is no way that she can become legal. Kill the play there and penalize the illegal pitch.

I realize that an illegal pitch is a delayed dead ball by rule, however, I read something that I believe grants some wiggle room

6-2-3, Penalty, note: An illegal pitch shall be called immediately by the plate or base umpire when it becomes illegal. Depending on the infraction, a delayed dead-ball signal may be given.

Since this particular infraction is illegal well before the ball is pitched, why wait to call it and penalize it?

My interpretation only, I'm open to be convinced otherwise.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

I will take a shot...

Since you mentioned a HS clinic....I will reference HS rules.



Once she has done this, there is no way that she can become legal. Kill the play there and penalize the illegal pitch.

I realize that an illegal pitch is a delayed dead ball by rule, however, I read something that I believe grants some wiggle room

6-2-3, Penalty, note: An illegal pitch shall be called immediately by the plate or base umpire when it becomes illegal. Depending on the infraction, a delayed dead-ball signal may be given.

Since this particular infraction is illegal well before the ball is pitched, why wait to call it and penalize it?

My interpretation only, I'm open to be convinced otherwise.

You know, I have heard this interpretation before, but I have never been able to reconcile it with NFHS 6-1-f-2, that says "when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitcher's plate with both feet;"

Can someone show me a rule or official written interpretation (other than XXY said so) that says this rule regarding pitch preliminaries does NOT apply when the pitcher steps on the pitcher's plate with hands together?

Honestly, without that (a contradictory rule, or a written interpretation), I can't see how stepping on with hands together cannot be remedied by stepping off. If it can still be remedied, then it isn't YET illegal. That means it isn't illegal until either 1) the hands separate, or 2) some part of the windup motion begins. If that (last sentence) remains true, then it is both possible and appropriate that a DDB be called, since the pitch has begun, and the scenario posed would remain in effect.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

That means it isn't illegal until either 1) the hands separate, or 2) some part of the windup motion begins. If that (last sentence) remains true, then it is both possible and appropriate that a DDB be called, since the pitch has begun, and the scenario posed would remain in effect.

If this were right, then it is not a delayed dead ball. If the pitch isn't illegal yet, then there's no dead ball to delay. If a pitch isn't illegal when a runner leaves early, then it has no opportunity to become illegal.
________
condo rentals Pattaya

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

If this were right, then it is not a delayed dead ball. If the pitch isn't illegal yet, then there's no dead ball to delay. If a pitch isn't illegal when a runner leaves early, then it has no opportunity to become illegal.

I think you aren't fully following me. When a pitcher steps on with hands together, I have nothing yet; as stated above. If she steps back off, she has remedied the situation, and we start again (although the 20 second count between pitches continues). If she doesn't step off, when that pitcher separates, or starts a windup motion (NFHS only), it becomes (then) an illegal pitch. Since the pitch has started, by rule, you call the illegal pitch, and must signal a delayed dead ball, allowing the pitcher to continue, if she wishes.

If the runner leaves early, this wasn't caused by the illegal pitch; the runner is not permitted to leave until release, and the only illegal pitch that would cause the runner to violate would be a pitcher faking a pitch and holding on to the ball. The rulesmakers of ASA, NFHS (MS) and NCAA (DA) actually conferenced on this possible play, and recognized that if runners could leave early on an illegal pitch without penalty, that runners would be released and possibly halfway or more to the next base, disrupting the defense with an unfair advantage gained, and conceivably creating favorable "options" that far exceed the scope or intent of the illegal pitch penalty.

Same ruling applies in all 3 associations. While you penalize the illegal pitch, you also penalize the "leaving early". Since part of the leaving early results in a "no pitch", there is no offensive option. The runner that left early is out, a ball on the batter, and any [B]other[B] runners advance 1 base.

In any event, a smart coach will teach his pitcher to stop pitching (when she isn't too far into her motion) if she hears the words "illegal pitch" from an umpire. Continuing only gives the offense better options or better results than the IP penalty. And, no umpire looks at baserunners leaving when the pitcher stops and doesn't pitch.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

You know, I have heard this interpretation before, but I have never been able to reconcile it with NFHS 6-1-f-2, that says "when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitcher's plate with both feet;"

Can someone show me a rule or official written interpretation (other than XXY said so) that says this rule regarding pitch preliminaries does NOT apply when the pitcher steps on the pitcher's plate with hands together?

Honestly, without that (a contradictory rule, or a written interpretation), I can't see how stepping on with hands together cannot be remedied by stepping off. If it can still be remedied, then it isn't YET illegal. That means it isn't illegal until either 1) the hands separate, or 2) some part of the windup motion begins. If that (last sentence) remains true, then it is both possible and appropriate that a DDB be called, since the pitch has begun, and the scenario posed would remain in effect.

yeah but, isnt this in regards to a sequence of events? that must take place in a certain order?.... and there is the assumption that the pitcher came to the plate hands separated, then placed them together... then could legally step off with both feet? (i prefer either foot first then the other) because i get this mental image of the pitcher trying to step off with both feet at the same time (kinda bunny hopping backwards) but i digress.

[AtlUmpSteve]

t

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

yeah but, isnt this in regards to a sequence of events? that must take place in a certain order?.... and there is the assumption that the pitcher came to the plate hands separated, then placed them together... then could legally step off with both feet? (i prefer either foot first then the other) because i get this mental image of the pitcher trying to step off with both feet at the same time (kinda bunny hopping backwards) but i digress.

The best answers I can give you are that a) the rule doesn't actually say that sequence can't be remedied by stepping off before starting the pitch, b) in fact, the issue of stepping off is listed last in that sequence, leading me to believe it can be used up until that time, and c) after years of rule changes and clarifications, the rule has never exactly said it is an illegal pitch if the pitcher steps on with hands together. We only know it cannot be a legal pitch if the sequence isn't followed, or the pitcher stops the sequence by legally stepping off.

By the way, the "with both feet" intends to decribe that the pitcher must completely disengage if both feet were in contact. Otherwise, the one foot stepping back could be construed as starting the legal pitching motion in NFHS. The next rule, 6-1-f-3 says that either foot may step back first (unlike small ball, which I believe requires the pivot foot to disengage first).

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

You know, I have heard this interpretation before, but I have never been able to reconcile it with NFHS 6-1-f-2, that says "when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitcher's plate with both feet;"

Can someone show me a rule or official written interpretation (other than XXY said so) that says this rule regarding pitch preliminaries does NOT apply when the pitcher steps on the pitcher's plate with hands together?

Ok how's this?
NFHS 6-1-1-a Prior to pitching, the pitcher MUST........., and with the hands separated.
so if she doesn't meet this, its a illegal pitch... even if she brings the hands together and then legally disengages the plate? yes? or am i totally not understanding what your asking?

I kinda feel like the guy who brought a knife to a gun fight when talking rules with y'all.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

Ok how's this?
NFHS 6-1-1-a Prior to pitching, the pitcher MUST........., and with the hands separated.
so if she doesn't meet this, its a illegal pitch... even if she brings the hands together and then legally disengages the plate? yes? or am i totally not understanding what your asking?

I kinda feel like the guy who brought a knife to a gun fight when talking rules with y'all.

OK; but "prior to pitching". The act of disengaging (stepping off) means the action wasn't prior to pitching.

Let me ask it this way. Many pitchers like to keep the pitching plate clean, and between pitches, use their foot to sweep it clean. I think it is safe to say that we differentiate that contact from the preliminary to pitch by the fact that she then steps back off, prior to formally stepping on to start the required sequence. You would not invoke any preliminary pitching requirements, that she didn't have shoulders facing properly, that she didn't come to a full stop, that she didn't then immediately pitch. Why not? Because she legally stepped off; if she stayed there and then started a pitch, you would call it illegal. Suppose she had her hands together while using her foot to clear the plate? Is that different? Would you call that action an illegal pitch? I speculate (and surely hope) not; you would allow her to step off, disengage, restart under the sequence, legally engage.

Prior to pitching isn't an action that can be designated as concluded until the pitch begins; then the action to that point was prior to the pitch. It (prior) starts with engaging the plate, it (prior) ends when the pitch starts. Pitchers may legally disengage and restart by stepping off; that option is available when the hands are brought together (last in the required sequence) as long as the pitch hasn't started, no matter what else might happen wrong preliminary to the pitch, so far as I can tell. How/why is that option not available when the hands are together while stepping on?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NFHS 2009 Case Book

6.1.1 SITUATION A: (F.P.) May F1 take her pitching position with her hands already together? RULING: No. F1 's hands shall be apart when she steps onto the pitcher's plate. Therefore, this is an illegal pitch. (6-1-1a)

Says nothing about starting the pitch.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

OK; but "prior to pitching". The act of disengaging (stepping off) means the action wasn't prior to pitching.

Let me ask it this way. Many pitchers like to keep the pitching plate clean, and between pitches, use their foot to sweep it clean. I think it is safe to say that we differentiate that contact from the preliminary to pitch by the fact that she then steps back off, prior to formally stepping on to start the required sequence. You would not invoke any preliminary pitching requirements, that she didn't have shoulders facing properly, that she didn't come to a full stop, that she didn't then immediately pitch. Why not? Because she legally stepped off; if she stayed there and then started a pitch, you would call it illegal. Suppose she had her hands together while using her foot to clear the plate? Is that different? Would you call that action an illegal pitch? I speculate (and surely hope) not; you would allow her to step off, disengage, restart under the sequence, legally engage.

Prior to pitching isn't an action that can be designated as concluded until the pitch begins; then the action to that point was prior to the pitch. It (prior) starts with engaging the plate, it (prior) ends when the pitch starts. Pitchers may legally disengage and restart by stepping off; that option is available when the hands are brought together (last in the required sequence) as long as the pitch hasn't started, no matter what else might happen wrong preliminary to the pitch, so far as I can tell. How/why is that option not available when the hands are together while stepping on?

Well, that was a very well thought out and eloquently typed out argument, and me showing up with my knife... lol.

All I can retort with is that I know an illegal pitch when i see one and i know when she is cleaning off the plate when i see it.
And if she steps on the rubber with her hands together i'm making this call regardless if she finishes the pitch or if she disengages. Because at the end of ART1 the penalty for failure to do anything exactly how its spelled out in 6-1-1-a thru f is to call an illegal pitch and I will deal with the coach in a professional manner when questioned.

ie: pitcher has one foot on the rubber, hands together, she then proceeds to fill in a little divot in front of the rubber. she is satisfied with her landscaping duties and then places landscaping foot behind rubber and does not disengage with other foot, she then moves on to simulate taking of signal or actually takes a signal (im in illegal pitch mode) she then thinks ok i need a moment and disengages. thats an illegal pitch.
I am taking liberties with assuming what she is thinking, but i am judging her by her actions.

gotta go Duke is winning.

[MGKBLUE]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

So at the local HS meeting last night and the following ruling came up.

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. F1 steps on the pitchers plate with the hands together, so we have an illegal pitch.

Before F1 releases the ball,during the illegal pitch, R2 leaves the base early so we now have a dead ball.

The ruling we got was R1 is awarded home and R2 is an out for leaving early...

Have this already been discussed here and I can't find it ?

Did you guys/gals cover this in OKC ? Cause thats where this seems to be coming from.

Any feedback on this would be helpful....

This is correct. The interpreation can be found in the March 2008 ASA Rule Clarification and Plays:

Illegal Pitch / Runner leaving Early

The question has been asked what to do when an illegal pitch is called in fast pitch and also a runner leaves before the release of the pitch. If an Illegal pitch is called and then a runner leaves before the pitch is released then the base umpire should also call dead ball. Since dead ball is called and no pitch happens the umpire should enforce the Illegal pitch, a ball on the batter and the runner leaving the base too soon will be called out. If there is more than one runner on base then the runner leaving the base too soon is out and all other runners are advanced one base because of the illegal pitch.

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early. Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.

Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch

[Dakota]

An illegal pitch during the preliminaries should be called immediately, and should not be a delayed dead ball (e.g. taking the plate with hands together, etc.)

A pitch that starts and then becomes illegal is a DDB and the pitch is allowed to complete.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Dakota

An illegal pitch during the preliminaries should be called immediately, and should not be a delayed dead ball (e.g. taking the plate with hands together, etc.)

A pitch that starts and then becomes illegal is a DDB and the pitch is allowed to complete.

NFHS Rule references?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

An illegal pitch during the preliminaries should be called immediately, and should not be a delayed dead ball (e.g. taking the plate with hands together, etc.)

A pitch that starts and then becomes illegal is a DDB and the pitch is allowed to complete.

The OP is presumably about HS rules ("HS meeting"), so correct for NFHS. Some IP do not require a dead ball (6-1-1, 6-2-2, 6-2-3), so the IP is immediate, the ball is dead immediately; and anything the runner does after the infraction is immaterial.

That means the IP penalty is enforced and even the early leaving runner is advanced. If the runner left before the infraction, runner is out, IDB or DDB.

If the OP was about ASA, I yield the floor to Tom, Mike et al.