Is this right ?

[Chess Ref]

So at the local HS meeting last night and the following ruling came up.

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. F1 steps on the pitchers plate with the hands together, so we have an illegal pitch.

Before F1 releases the ball,during the illegal pitch, R2 leaves the base early so we now have a dead ball.

The ruling we got was R1 is awarded home and R2 is an out for leaving early...

Have this already been discussed here and I can't find it ?

Did you guys/gals cover this in OKC ? Cause thats where this seems to be coming from.

Any feedback on this would be helpful....

[Andy]

I will take a shot...

Since you mentioned a HS clinic....I will reference HS rules.

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. F1 steps on the pitchers plate with the hands together, so we have an illegal pitch.

Once she has done this, there is no way that she can become legal. Kill the play there and penalize the illegal pitch.

I realize that an illegal pitch is a delayed dead ball by rule, however, I read something that I believe grants some wiggle room

6-2-3, Penalty, note: An illegal pitch shall be called immediately by the plate or base umpire when it becomes illegal. Depending on the infraction, a delayed dead-ball signal may be given.

Since this particular infraction is illegal well before the ball is pitched, why wait to call it and penalize it?

My interpretation only, I'm open to be convinced otherwise.

[MGKBLUE]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

So at the local HS meeting last night and the following ruling came up.

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. F1 steps on the pitchers plate with the hands together, so we have an illegal pitch.

Before F1 releases the ball,during the illegal pitch, R2 leaves the base early so we now have a dead ball.

The ruling we got was R1 is awarded home and R2 is an out for leaving early...

Have this already been discussed here and I can't find it ?

Did you guys/gals cover this in OKC ? Cause thats where this seems to be coming from.

Any feedback on this would be helpful....

This is correct. The interpreation can be found in the March 2008 ASA Rule Clarification and Plays:

Illegal Pitch / Runner leaving Early

The question has been asked what to do when an illegal pitch is called in fast pitch and also a runner leaves before the release of the pitch. If an Illegal pitch is called and then a runner leaves before the pitch is released then the base umpire should also call dead ball. Since dead ball is called and no pitch happens the umpire should enforce the Illegal pitch, a ball on the batter and the runner leaving the base too soon will be called out. If there is more than one runner on base then the runner leaving the base too soon is out and all other runners are advanced one base because of the illegal pitch.

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early. Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.

Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch

[Dakota]

An illegal pitch during the preliminaries should be called immediately, and should not be a delayed dead ball (e.g. taking the plate with hands together, etc.)

A pitch that starts and then becomes illegal is a DDB and the pitch is allowed to complete.

[pollywolly60]

Originally Posted by MGKBLUE

This is correct. The interpreation can be found in the March 2008 ASA Rule Clarification and Plays:

Illegal Pitch / Runner leaving Early

The question has been asked what to do when an illegal pitch is called in fast pitch and also a runner leaves before the release of the pitch. If an Illegal pitch is called and then a runner leaves before the pitch is released then the base umpire should also call dead ball. Since dead ball is called and no pitch happens the umpire should enforce the Illegal pitch, a ball on the batter and the runner leaving the base too soon will be called out. If there is more than one runner on base then the runner leaving the base too soon is out and all other runners are advanced one base because of the illegal pitch.

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early. Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.

Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch

In this particular play, isn't it possible that R1 was timing her release from the bag with the separation of the pitcher's hands, and therefore was guilty of "leaving early" because of the illegal pitch? Should R1 be penalized for this?

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

So at the local HS meeting last night... Did you guys/gals cover this in OKC ? Cause thats where this seems to be coming from.

Any feedback on this would be helpful....

You are dealing with two different rule sets in your own question. HS leads me to believe this is NFHS rules. Your OKC reference leads me to believe you are now speaking ASA.

As pointed out in the above answers, there is a huge difference between ASA and NFHS on this scenario. Be careful not to mix them up.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

So at the local HS meeting last night and the following ruling came up.

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. F1 steps on the pitchers plate with the hands together, so we have an illegal pitch.

Before F1 releases the ball,during the illegal pitch, R2 leaves the base early so we now have a dead ball.

The ruling we got was R1 is awarded home and R2 is an out for leaving early...

Have this already been discussed here and I can't find it ?

Did you guys/gals cover this in OKC ? Cause thats where this seems to be coming from.

Any feedback on this would be helpful....

Yes, we have discussed it before and it was part of the discussion in OKC last week.

In ASA, you enforce both with the leaving early first creating a dead ball.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

You are dealing with two different rule sets in your own question. HS leads me to believe this is NFHS rules. Your OKC reference leads me to believe you are now speaking ASA.

As pointed out in the above answers, there is a huge difference between ASA and NFHS on this scenario. Be careful not to mix them up.

Good point... I was commenting on NFHS interpretations as I understand them. I missed the reference to OKC.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

You are dealing with two different rule sets in your own question. HS leads me to believe this is NFHS rules. Your OKC reference leads me to believe you are now speaking ASA.

As pointed out in the above answers, there is a huge difference between ASA and NFHS on this scenario. Be careful not to mix them up.

We are a NFHS Association that is heavily influenced by ASA. All of our top dogs are ASA company men. ..The trainer said this weekend in OKC they came up with this ruling. They said this applies to NFHS.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by Dakota

An illegal pitch during the preliminaries should be called immediately, and should not be a delayed dead ball (e.g. taking the plate with hands together, etc.)

A pitch that starts and then becomes illegal is a DDB and the pitch is allowed to complete.

NFHS Rule references?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by pollywolly60

In this particular play, isn't it possible that R1 was timing her release from the bag with the separation of the pitcher's hands, and therefore was guilty of "leaving early" because of the illegal pitch? Should R1 be penalized for this?

Yes, hands separating is not the criteria, release of the ball is.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

We are a NFHS Association that is heavily influenced by ASA. All of our top dogs are ASA company men. ..The trainer said this weekend in OKC they came up with this ruling. They said this applies to NFHS.

That does not seem a legit source for NFHS rules.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

An illegal pitch during the preliminaries should be called immediately, and should not be a delayed dead ball (e.g. taking the plate with hands together, etc.)

A pitch that starts and then becomes illegal is a DDB and the pitch is allowed to complete.

The OP is presumably about HS rules ("HS meeting"), so correct for NFHS. Some IP do not require a dead ball (6-1-1, 6-2-2, 6-2-3), so the IP is immediate, the ball is dead immediately; and anything the runner does after the infraction is immaterial.

That means the IP penalty is enforced and even the early leaving runner is advanced. If the runner left before the infraction, runner is out, IDB or DDB.

If the OP was about ASA, I yield the floor to Tom, Mike et al.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

I will take a shot...

Since you mentioned a HS clinic....I will reference HS rules.



Once she has done this, there is no way that she can become legal. Kill the play there and penalize the illegal pitch.

I realize that an illegal pitch is a delayed dead ball by rule, however, I read something that I believe grants some wiggle room

6-2-3, Penalty, note: An illegal pitch shall be called immediately by the plate or base umpire when it becomes illegal. Depending on the infraction, a delayed dead-ball signal may be given.

Since this particular infraction is illegal well before the ball is pitched, why wait to call it and penalize it?

My interpretation only, I'm open to be convinced otherwise.

You know, I have heard this interpretation before, but I have never been able to reconcile it with NFHS 6-1-f-2, that says "when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitcher's plate with both feet;"

Can someone show me a rule or official written interpretation (other than XXY said so) that says this rule regarding pitch preliminaries does NOT apply when the pitcher steps on the pitcher's plate with hands together?

Honestly, without that (a contradictory rule, or a written interpretation), I can't see how stepping on with hands together cannot be remedied by stepping off. If it can still be remedied, then it isn't YET illegal. That means it isn't illegal until either 1) the hands separate, or 2) some part of the windup motion begins. If that (last sentence) remains true, then it is both possible and appropriate that a DDB be called, since the pitch has begun, and the scenario posed would remain in effect.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

That means it isn't illegal until either 1) the hands separate, or 2) some part of the windup motion begins. If that (last sentence) remains true, then it is both possible and appropriate that a DDB be called, since the pitch has begun, and the scenario posed would remain in effect.

If this were right, then it is not a delayed dead ball. If the pitch isn't illegal yet, then there's no dead ball to delay. If a pitch isn't illegal when a runner leaves early, then it has no opportunity to become illegal.
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