Sweep tags @ 1B on errant throws.

[AtlUmpSteve]

I believe the issue is where and how the tag is expected to be applied.

From the defined mechanic, it would seem the expected tag is perpendicular to the base line; the BR to head more to foul territory, and the F3 reaching from fair to foul. By getting closer to the line, BU has closer to a 90 on that play. (That is also the angle where you would get the most help from PU.) Moving into the infield may straight line you on that tag, with F3 between you and the tag.

However, many swipe tags bring F3 up the line toward home, and then the swipe may be behind them, with the runner having passed F3. In that case, moving toward the line makes the tag a straight line, and also removes the angle (closing toward 0/180 degrees) determining if the tag happened before the BR touched the base. In those plays, moving toward the infield provides the 90 to the tag, and maintains an angle on the base. And, that play has very little chance of help from PU, who is now straight lined.

I was taught to read and react, that neither solution was 100%. Again, your primary reaction picks up the play without help, while the primary ASA mechanic focuses on the play where you would likely get help.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I believe the issue is where and how the tag is expected to be applied.

From the defined mechanic, it would seem the expected tag is perpendicular to the base line; the BR to head more to foul territory, and the F3 reaching from fair to foul. By getting closer to the line, BU has closer to a 90 on that play. (That is also the angle where you would get the most help from PU.) Moving into the infield may straight line you on that tag, with F3 between you and the tag.

However, many swipe tags bring F3 up the line toward home, and then the swipe may be behind them, with the runner having passed F3. In that case, moving toward the line makes the tag a straight line, and also removes the angle (closing toward 0/180 degrees) determining if the tag happened before the BR touched the base. In those plays, moving toward the infield provides the 90 to the tag, and maintains an angle on the base. And, that play has very little chance of help from PU, who is now straight lined.

I was taught to read and react, that neither solution was 100%. Again, your primary reaction picks up the play without help, while the primary ASA mechanic focuses on the play where you would likely get help.

Don't disagree. When you see the DVD, if you haven't already, the play is as you described, up the line with a swipe to the runner's backside.

Even in the book, it tells us to move toward the line which is where my concern comes in. Like you note, there is no given way and I think that if they are not going to make that distinction, they shouldn't put anything into print.

[AtlUmpSteve]

I haven't seen the DVD; when I was told at the Council meeting that it would be given to all registrants at the UIC Clinic, I decided to wait for that, rather than pay again.

I know what's been in the book; many years ago I asked both Billy P. and Henry the same question.

Henry came back with the standard response; we have to teach a single mechanic to the 40,000 umpires to make a standard reaction, and we believe the majority of plays are better handled with that mechanic.

Billy P. preached "advanced mechanics for advanced umpires", similar to the current NCAA approach; he told me that an advanced umpire (not following the ASA one mechanic for all) would read the play, and get the 90 for the play that actually developed as the first priority.

Personally, I am willing to take the hit if told I used the wrong mechanic if the result is a better position to make a more accurate call on an individual play. I nod, say something like "I will keep that in mind next time that play happens", and move on.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Henry came back with the standard response; we have to teach a single mechanic to the 40,000 umpires to make a standard reaction, and we believe the majority of plays are better handled with that mechanic.

Yep, we've all heard that one a few times. I guess I just don't think this one is that hard.

Billy P. preached "advanced mechanics for advanced umpires", similar to the current NCAA approach; he told me that an advanced umpire (not following the ASA one mechanic for all) would read the play, and get the 90 for the play that actually developed as the first priority.

Personally, I am willing to take the hit if told I used the wrong mechanic if the result is a better position to make a more accurate call on an individual play. I nod, say something like "I will keep that in mind next time that play happens", and move on.

I agree, been there.

[NCASAUmp]

I've not seen the DVD, either, but I've always been taught 90 degrees to the tag. If I think that the closest I can get towards a good 90 is by moving into the infield, then that's what I'm doing. That was the emphasis at our NUS last year, and I have the feeling it's going to be the emphasis for quite a while. If someone wants to ding me for it on an eval, at least I have something backing me up.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I've not seen the DVD, either, but I've always been taught 90 degrees to the tag. If I think that the closest I can get towards a good 90 is by moving into the infield, then that's what I'm doing. That was the emphasis at our NUS last year, and I have the feeling it's going to be the emphasis for quite a while. If someone wants to ding me for it on an eval, at least I have something backing me up.

That may all depend upon to whom you are speaking.

I have received reports over the past couple of years of differences among members of the staff. I've had umpires get dinged for things from the BU watching a BR hit 1B instead of watching a ball in the outfield to not mirroring all of the PU's dead ball calls. I, also, understand some students confronted the staff last year at the advanced SP camp because they were getting conflicting instruction.

[wadeintothem]

If this was home plate and I suggested the line is the best on the swipe, I am universally lampooned.

sweet irony.

Let me line up with the "to the line" folks on this one.

All things being equal, IMO the line is best on the swipe. You do sacrifice position if there ends up a play at 2B.

Moving to a 90 in the infield on a play in/from the infield or left side of the field should never be considered unless you like tasting dirt as you are waking up. Also, 90 on a swipe is simply not the best view. straight down it is the best view. That is why a lot of times we go for help on this. Logic tells us PU sees it best on the line.

Then someone will say "90!!!".


The play is developing and it looks like there will be a bad throw/ swipe situation, you can take a step or 2 back towards the line, you dont come in. Youre not going to make the 90 anyway, all your going to be is out of position on the swipe and possibly in the way.

IMO.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That may all depend upon to whom you are speaking.

I have received reports over the past couple of years of differences among members of the staff. I've had umpires get dinged for things from the BU watching a BR hit 1B instead of watching a ball in the outfield to not mirroring all of the PU's dead ball calls. I, also, understand some students confronted the staff last year at the advanced SP camp because they were getting conflicting instruction.

Well, that's certainly true, and I think the disparity between NUS staff is only going to grow wider as time goes on. Until someone puts his foot down and says, "enough of this, fix it," it's only going to get worse.

My statement wasn't meant to imply that an umpire should "find the 90" and stay there. Find the 90, and continue to let the play take you to where you can get the best angle. Silly guy...

I suppose in this sitch, it depends on where the errant throw pulls F3. If it pulls F3 towards 2B, I might go for the line. If it pulls F3 towards the outfield down the foul line, I might go for the 1B to 2B baseline.

Would it p1$$ off a UIC if I do the latter? Maybe, but two things would happen:

1 - I'd probably get the call right by SEEING the play instead of guessing.
2 - I'd have the NUS to fall back on. Would that stand? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on who's ripping me a new one.