Botched Squeeze, Tag @ 3rd

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

However, I think Wade has a point here. Watch where Wilke's looking when the ball pops out... not even watching the loose ball on the ground. Too quick of a call immediately after the tag, IMO.

Why? Is there some secret rule that states a player must keep possession for a certain period of time after the tag is applied? Citations, please.

Who cares where the umpire was looking when the ball came out of the mitt? The umpire was in perfect position. Saw the tag by the catcher with possession of the ball and made the call. Any subsequent action is irrelevant to the tag and out call. As stated often in this discussion, do not confuse a "catch" with a "tag", it is not the same.

MLB Rule 2.00 Definitions:

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the
ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his
hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or

glove.

MLB Rule 7.08 Any Runner is Out When-

(c) He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: A batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;
APPROVED RULING: (1) If the impact of a runner breaks a base loose from its position, no play can be made on that runner at that base if he had reached the base safely.
APPROVED RULING: (2) If a base is dislodged from its position during a play, any following runner on the same play shall be considered as touching or occupying the base if, in the umpire’s

As you can see, there is no requirement of time associated with the tag. ASA's rules are basically the same.

[jmkupka]

Mike, I appreciate the black-and-whiteness of your interpretation of the rule. It makes it so much easier to make this call.

Situation: F2 catches the incoming throw at the plate, the mitt is holding it securely as the runner slides into the mitt (6-8" up the line from the plate-whatever). The violent action of the foot hitting the mitt causes the ball to come out & roll away.
The instantaneous contact between foot and mitt is enough for the out?

[Dakota]

If the foot hitting the mitt causes the ball to come loose, it wasn't held securely and firmly.

[jmkupka]

Absolutely, but as opposed to being juggled/ rolling around in the glove, it was squeezed tightly at the moment of contact (just not tightly enough).

I guess I'm splitting hairs, but in the OP, would it still have been a good call if the ball came out before he hit the ground (as he flew through the air)? That is to say, the only other force that caused it to come out was the tag itself.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dakota

If the foot hitting the mitt causes the ball to come loose, it wasn't held securely and firmly.

I agree. Only exception in my opinion is if the runner deliberately and obviously kicks or hits the glove with the intent of knocking the ball loose (ie., what A-Rod did a few years ago). Then I'd have an out.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I agree. Only exception in my opinion is if the runner deliberately and obviously kicks or hits the glove with the intent of knocking the ball loose (ie., what A-Rod did a few years ago). Then I'd have an out.

But for a different reason - interference.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dakota

But for a different reason - interference.

Bingo.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Mike, I appreciate the black-and-whiteness of your interpretation of the rule. It makes it so much easier to make this call.

Situation: F2 catches the incoming throw at the plate, the mitt is holding it securely as the runner slides into the mitt (6-8" up the line from the plate-whatever). The violent action of the foot hitting the mitt causes the ball to come out & roll away.
The instantaneous contact between foot and mitt is enough for the out?

What Tom said.

Remember, I am discussing a certain play where a tag was executed by a fielder with possession of the ball. To demonstrate the possession, the fielder was capable of withdrawing the mitt/hand with the ball in it. At that point, the tag is complete. There is no rule in any book which has been cited in the thread that states the fielder must continue to maintain possession of the ball for any certain period of time.

Now, in the play cited at the top of the thread, if the catcher had slapped the runner with the mitt and the ball came out as a result of that action, the tag was not complete and the runner is not out because, like in the play to which Tom responded, the ball came loose because of the tag, not subsequent to it.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Why? Is there some secret rule that states a player must keep possession for a certain period of time after the tag is applied? Citations, please.

Who cares where the umpire was looking when the ball came out of the mitt? The umpire was in perfect position. Saw the tag by the catcher with possession of the ball and made the call. Any subsequent action is irrelevant to the tag and out call. As stated often in this discussion, do not confuse a "catch" with a "tag", it is not the same.

Oh don't get me wrong... I think he got the call right. And please don't patronize me - you know as well as I do that there's no time frame.

There is absolutely a reason to keep your eyes on the rest of the play. Why do you think we're taught to not turn our head on a 3K sell out with runners on base?

All I'm saying here is that IMO, Wilke turned away from the play to make his call, and probably didn't see the ball come loose, for whatever reason - ground, bag, bobble, interference, whatever. Did him looking away affect the call? No.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

All I'm saying here is that IMO, Wilke turned away from the play to make his call, and probably didn't see the ball come loose, for whatever reason - ground, bag, bobble, interference, whatever. Did him looking away affect the call? No.

I just watched the play three more times and I don't see the umpire turning away from the play. To me, it seemed he had everything in his visual range. Just because he doesn't stare directly at the ball for the duration doesn't mean was not aware of what was happening. He had the call all the way. He saw the tag (and obviously determined possession of the ball) and made the call. For that matter, when the ball comes out, he points to the base and repeats the call for the retired runner. This is exactly the same we all do (or should do) when a ball is dropped on the exchange when there is an attempted throw to complete a double play.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Why? Is there some secret rule that states a player must keep possession for a certain period of time after the tag is applied? Citations, please.

deal!

MLB 2.00 Definitions

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the
ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his
hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or

glove.

As you can see in the above rule that I was able to locate, the ball must be firmly and securely held. Dropping a ball can be evidence that the ball is not securely and firmly held.

[Dakota]

I didn't see anything in the rule you cited about a certain period of time.

[Al]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I didn't see anything in the rule you cited about a certain period of time.

Hey tom,

Sec.33 in the USSSA rule book states...

"A tag out is the putting out of a runner who is not touching a base, by touching the runner with a live ball, or the glove or hand when the live ball is SECURELY HELD therein by a fielder. The ball is NOT considered as having been held securely if it is juggled or dropped AFTER the touching unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder".

To me, speaking U-trip, the rule says to wait to see if the fielder met the requirement of the tag-out rule. The rule calls for a secure tag not just a tag. So if a ball comes out of a glove BEFORE it is shown to be held securely, by rule, we have a safe call.

[Dakota]

I agree with all of that, but still, the judgment is that the ball was securely held, not that it was held "long enough."

[Al]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I agree with all of that, but still, the judgment is that the ball was securely held, not that it was held "long enough."

Dakota,

I understand that, but the rule on tag-outs says the ball is NOT considered as having been HELD securely if juggled or dropped AFTER the TOUCHING ((unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder)). So, really it has nothing to do with being held long enough but what happens after the touching. According to rule a ball that is bobbled after the touching is not a ball that is securely held. What does the wording of the USSSA rule tell us? It tells us that a controlled tag must include controll of the ball after the touching, and not just at the touching, unless the bobbling or dropping of a ball was a result of being intentionally knocked loose by a fielder.

Let's consider this play: An open field swipe tag is made to a runners chest and the runners arm unintentionally hits the glove as the fielder is pulling the glove away from the runner and the ball is dropped. Would the umpire just assume the tag was securely held, or would he/she say the tag was good and the girl is out? The fact that she dropped the ball shows she didn't have firm control of the ball so without an infraction by the runner she would not be called out.