ASA Rule; Access to,

[Dholloway1962]

Scott, I do know where you are coming from, trust me. I just get tired of umpires saying they would do it for free, or the money doesn't matter. Of course it does, you even admit you need the money to keep up with equipment, gas, etc... Would you do it for free, no compensation at all? I imagine the answer is no. So the money is part of the reason for doing it. If you would do it for totally nothing then I suggest you see a doctor

I love the game and I love umping the game. Am I in it for the money, partly. Take the money out of it would I do it, absolutely not!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

I gotta call BS on these quotes guys. Thinking back on your umpiring career, take away the money you were paid and you would do this for free? It has to do a little with the $$$. To practice what you preach, I suggest you do an entire year for free, no cash payments or reimbursements of any kind, including paying for your food/drink at the concessions.

I am into this (umpiring) for more than the money, but the money is part of it. It has to be and to insinuate the money doesn't matter is not quite truthful.

And if your UIC told you that he had a National for you to work, but couldn't help you out financially, you would say, "No thanks, I've got a big co-ed tournament this week for $25 a game".

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And if your UIC told you that he had a National for you to work, but couldn't help you out financially, you would say, "No thanks, I've got a big co-ed tournament this week for $25 a game".

If there were no game fees, no travel expenses (assuming out of town), no hotel paid for (assuming out of town) you're right, I would say "no, but thank you". I'm sure most umpires would say the same.

[wadeintothem]

I think as independent contractors, umpires are free to roam where they may, putting to work the training they pay and work for as they see fit.

I think an organization that hires umpires can set their criteria... and it is perfectly reasonable to set criteria for assignment which could/should include loyalty.

i.e. If you are primarily an NSA umpire who leaves an ASA assigner hanging week after week for the "regular tournaments", but a cool 18G ASA NQ rolls in, so suddenly you call up and are available .. well if would be perfectly fine for that assigner to put you at the bottom of the list or even black ball you. Yeah, we may use you.. at 12U. Theres your assignment pal, enjoy it.

I think its fair for both sides to operate in this manner, that is the nature of independent contracting, and one has a choice they can make with the understanding that loyalty to an organization is a perfectly valid criteria for evaluation of an umpire as a whole in regards to assignments.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

I just work to have fun. I want to be the best, yes, but I don't care about the money or the big game.

I agree. I enjoy the umpiring. I will and have done it for nothing. I don't
live close to any of the games I call. Wanting the big game, they all are
big games.

[topper]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And if your UIC told you that he had a National for you to work, but couldn't help you out financially, you would say, "No thanks, I've got a big co-ed tournament this week for $25 a game".

Absolutely. Once I discovered the number of games worked and per game fee that ASA pays at it's nationals.

The notion that an umpire should be so "honored" to receive an assignment that they work at a reduced rate is somewhat insulting in that it suggests some sort of favor has been done to the official. Try that approach with your mechanic or accountant some time. Umpires provide a service and should be compensated accordingly based on the value of that service. "Bigger" games should pay those umpires whose abilities merit such assignments better than lesser games. This has not been ASA's philosophy in the past. This, and the discouragingly poor level of many of the umpires at the nationals I've attended as a fan, is why I have never accepted the "honor" of an ASA national assignment. I can make more money and enjoy working with more competent officials at a local tournament.

I, like many on this board, have invested a lot of time, effort, and money to get my game to a level where I can be considered for the types of assignments I dreamed of when I started. Yes, I'm proud when considered for these assignments, but don't feel I should be any more honored to work a game than the participants are to have me work it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

If there were no game fees, no travel expenses (assuming out of town), no hotel paid for (assuming out of town) you're right, I would say "no, but thank you". I'm sure most umpires would say the same.

That's too bad. If it were cost-prohibitive, I would understand why they would have to turn it down. I believe many championship-caliber umpires would try to find a way, but not just dismiss the possibility because they weren't going to make any money or might cost them airfare.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by topper

Absolutely. Once I discovered the number of games worked and per game fee that ASA pays at it's nationals.

The notion that an umpire should be so "honored" to receive an assignment that they work at a reduced rate is somewhat insulting in that it suggests some sort of favor has been done to the official. Try that approach with your mechanic or accountant some time. Umpires provide a service and should be compensated accordingly based on the value of that service. "Bigger" games should pay those umpires whose abilities merit such assignments better than lesser games. This has not been ASA's philosophy in the past. This, and the discouragingly poor level of many of the umpires at the nationals I've attended as a fan, is why I have never accepted the "honor" of an ASA national assignment. I can make more money and enjoy working with more competent officials at a local tournament.

I, like many on this board, have invested a lot of time, effort, and money to get my game to a level where I can be considered for the types of assignments I dreamed of when I started. Yes, I'm proud when considered for these assignments, but don't feel I should be any more honored to work a game than the participants are to have me work it.

I think you make good points but you do gloss over one aspect of umpiring..

First, yes its money. But its also a passion and hobby we love. As much as I wish it could be my job and career, it will never be. So it is what it is, something I love to do.

If it is a goal of an umpire to go higher; the pursuit of the higher levels of our hobby and passion requires resume building. Just like schools you attend where you actually pay to go; nationals is not all about "honor" of getting the assignment, but for resume building for future assignments.

Do you want to do a womens or mens major or other highest level ball there is or are you satisfied with a Utrip world series?

Is it your concern to make more money working beer league for a week or a national?

If your goal is beer league for a week because you make more, I'm fine with that. The community needs that type of umpire.

Understand others may not be so concerned with the short term "loss" of 18-20 per game for a national because the pay off is either later or a different type of reward.

[topper]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

If it is a goal of an umpire to go higher; the pursuit of the higher levels of our hobby and passion requires resume building. Just like schools you attend where you actually pay to go; nationals is not all about "honor" of getting the assignment, but for resume building for future assignments.

Your are correct if you are building a resume' for future assignments withn ASA or ISF. I have not found that my ASA nationals resume', or lack thereof, has affected any of my regular or post season assingments at the collegate level.

It's really about each official's individual goals.

I am certainly not the only official I know with this opinion and feel that ASA could attract more high level officials who, while they work ASA ball, aren't necessarily motivated by the "honor" of working or moving up within ASA if the compensation were more in line with the importance of the games.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That's too bad. If it were cost-prohibitive, I would understand why they would have to turn it down. I believe many championship-caliber umpires would try to find a way, but not just dismiss the possibility because they weren't going to make any money or might cost them airfare.

It would be cost prohibitive for me to go and do it for free with no reimbursement. If it were local that would be a different story. Truly we do them, National games, for pretty much free as it is right now!

I'm not in it to make a fortune. I am in it to make a little money and do something I enjoy and work hard to get better at. Umpiring has become a passion and a hobby for me. But I'm not going to do it and lose money (part of reason I quit college umpiring).

I just think those that come out and say I'm not in it for the money are trying make a self-serving statement that isn't true. Take the money out of it (umpiring) and no one would do it....and that's the truth whether or not you agree with it or not.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And if your UIC told you that he had a National for you to work, but couldn't help you out financially, you would say, "No thanks, I've got a big co-ed tournament this week for $25 a game".

Depends on travel distance to the ASA National and how many games I would be assigned to work. I've been at ASA National's in the past where they wanted you to report at 8:00 AM with a last game of the day at 9:30 PM and only be scheduled to work four games during that time period at between $18.00 - $25.00 per game.

Usually with NSA or PONY tournaments, I'm assigned six or seven games per day (working two games and one game off) with payment between $35.00 - $40.00 per game. Sometimes NSA will also kick in a travel fee.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by topper

Your are correct if you are building a resume' for future assignments withn ASA or ISF. I have not found that my ASA nationals resume', or lack thereof, has affected any of my regular or post season assingments at the collegate level.

And why should it? They are not the same organization.

It's really about each official's individual goals.

very true.

I am certainly not the only official I know with this opinion and feel that ASA could attract more high level officials who, while they work ASA ball, aren't necessarily motivated by the "honor" of working or moving up within ASA if the compensation were more in line with the importance of the games.

I'm not so sure ASA needs that official. For what? Many college umpires are more impressed with themselves than they are impressive on the field.

Some are good, some are not. I dont think the college umpires that begrudgingly come slithering to ASA when they run out of NCAA assignments then whimper all day about how per diem is better in NCAA than a whole days worth of games in ASA, bore us with lame war stories, while doing a half assed poor job, because its not NCAA, hold very much value to ASA.

I would put them at the bottom of any list of umpire. They are the worst to work around.

Then there are the other type of umpires. Those that put umpiring first. They transition easily between NCAA and ASA and excel at both. They are teachers and good umpires. You can learn a lot from them.

It is about choice, and I respect that. The first type - "NCAA come to ASA and whine" can simply go away. No hard feelings, ASA was here before them and will be here after they. They are not needed.

[topper]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I'm not so sure ASA needs that official. For what? Many college umpires are more impressed with themselves than they are impressive on the field.

Some are good, some are not. I dont think the college umpires that begrudgingly come slithering to ASA when they run out of NCAA assignments then whimper all day about how per diem is better in NCAA than a whole days worth of games in ASA, bore us with lame war stories, while doing a half assed poor job, because its not NCAA, hold very much value to ASA.

I would put them at the bottom of any list of umpire. They are the worst to work around.

Wow! Sorry to here about the college guys in your area. This is not the case in my area. Except the part about the lame war stories. Although I hear just as many youth ball stories as college stories so I guess ASA only guys can be just as boring / annoying as those that call both.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000

Depends on travel distance to the ASA National and how many games I would be assigned to work. I've been at ASA National's in the past where they wanted you to report at 8:00 AM with a last game of the day at 9:30 PM and only be scheduled to work four games during that time period at between $18.00 - $25.00 per game.

Usually with NSA or PONY tournaments, I'm assigned six or seven games per day (working two games and one game off) with payment between $35.00 - $40.00 per game. Sometimes NSA will also kick in a travel fee.

you worked a national where you worked 4 games in a day?

Wow, consider yourself lucky!

Comparing ASA nationals to tournaments is apples and oranges. My ASA tournament this weekend I worked 7 games sat, 5 game sun, with motel sat night.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by topper

Does the term "independent contractor" mean anything to you? What would compel someone to pass up $35-$40/game to work for $25/game? Loyalty? The opportunity to take a week's vacation and travel to an ASA natiional to work for $18-$20? Wake up and smell the cost of living.

You're asking ME to wake up and smell the cost of living? Oh, if you only knew. Since August of 2006 I have not been able to work more than five hours a day at my "real" job due to health reasons. Since April 1, I have been unable to work my "real" job at all. I am not going to get into all the reasons why, but that is beside the point.

Oh, that other waking up and smelling the cost of living? Medical expenses, including visiting up to four different makes of doctors every month and getting the prescriptions, costs about $1,000 a month. It would cost more, but my wife has decent insurance. Also I have chosen to ignore a couple of health concerns which I really shouldn't ignore, but life is made of choices. Ignoring them will very likely shorten my life, but, hey, just think what a difference slowly dying makes on the cost of living!

Obviously loyalty doesn't mean as much to you as it does to me and many others. If that is a "fault" in your eyes, I feel sorry for you. If you are in it for the money, please quit now and go cook fries at McDonalds, work at 7-11 or something else. You will make far more money (net profit) at Mickey D's than you ever will umpiring. You might not make as many friends for life at Mickey D's, but, heck, you'll be much better off in regards to the cost of living.

Oh, and that week's vacation to work a national for $18 a game? Well, I was supposed to go to Illinois in 2007 for a week's vacation and get that $18 a game, but things just didn't work out. However, I'd do it in a heartbeat -- and Thank God there are thousands of others who feel the very same.