Jericho Scott

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Apparently, you are not familiar with the ASA Elite Player list.

No, I'm not. So, riddle me this: a player who has no history of play at any level other than B is rostered on an ASA 10U B team according to the ASA Code as a 10U B team. Neither the team nor the player has ever won a national tournament at any classification. This team then has an undefeated season because the player is a lights-out pitcher. Can ASA then require the team to remove this player from the roster or to not play her at the F1 position because she is "too good" for a B team?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Putting aside all the BS with the alleged adults (and you thought SP players were bad), if this is a private group operating a league involving voluntary participation on private property, there is...excuse me, "shouldn't be" any assumed legal rights by any individual. Of course, that doesn't stop anyone, parent, lawyer or judge from declaring themselves as the god of the community and start telling people how to run their life.

The league is probably a 501(c)(3) non profit, which means, among other things, they must abide by their own by-laws. If their action against this player violates their by-laws, you bet legal action can be taken against them.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

No, I'm not. So, riddle me this: a player who has no history of play at any level other than B is rostered on an ASA 10U B team according to the ASA Code as a 10U B team. Neither the team nor the player has ever won a national tournament at any classification. This team then has an undefeated season because the player is a lights-out pitcher. Can ASA then require the team to remove this player from the roster or to not play her at the F1 position because she is "too good" for a B team?

No, ASA would not, but that is because they only deal with Championship play. But your argument is weak as this kid DID have a track record to the point of being recruited, so his abilities should not have been a surprise to anyone. BTW, when it comes to "B", ASA does show a concern as last year they banned any collegiate player from the B ranks.

The league is probably a 501(c)(3) non profit, which means, among other things, they must abide by their own by-laws. If their action against this player violates their by-laws, you bet legal action can be taken against them.

And without knowing their by-laws, who is to pass judgment upon their actions? Not you or me.

Do you think the by-laws actually state that any player has a "right" to participate in whatever manner and at what position they determine is proper? If that were so, half the team would have to be allowed to pitch, the other half play outfield and rarely would anyone catch. Then again, you never know if these parents had anything to do with the by-laws, it may just say that, but I doubt it.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, ASA would not, but that is because they only deal with Championship play. But your argument is weak as this kid DID have a track record to the point of being recruited, so his abilities should not have been a surprise to anyone. BTW, when it comes to "B", ASA does show a concern as last year they banned any collegiate player from the B ranks.

As information dribbles out, he had more of a track record than was apparent from the first story. He is apparently also rostered in another league on a more advanced team.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And without knowing their by-laws, who is to pass judgment upon their actions? Not you or me.

Do you think the by-laws actually state that any player has a "right" to participate in whatever manner and at what position they determine is proper? If that were so, half the team would have to be allowed to pitch, the other half play outfield and rarely would anyone catch. Then again, you never know if these parents had anything to do with the by-laws, it may just say that, but I doubt it.

True enough. I was just addressing your private business argument. If they are 501(c)(3) they gave up some of their freedom to be arbitrary in exchange for the tax-free status. I would imagine the by-laws do cover the process for changing the rules covering player eligibility. If they do, and if they did not rigorously follow this process (including a paper trail), they may be in deep doo doo if the shyster the parents have hired takes them to court.

[DaveASA/FED]

This is the reason that in a perfect world members of the board of directors for a league should not have a kid playing in the league at all, nor should they coach a team in that league. Now I said in a perfect world, I know that wont happen in real life, only so so many people that will dedicate time to these types of things. So they end up wearing multiple hats.

Well after being involved with a rec league for 8 years as UIC I have been a voting member of the board for these years. I can say that this type of manipulating occurs often. Things go on and are spun in ways to get things passed that have an advantage to a certain team. Maybe that is why I got a different feeling from the story than some of you did, having this past knowledge of being on this board and having seen some people work. But with the facts that are in the story, I can’t see it any other way.

1) Team A, defending league champs, wanted a player to play for them, that player decided to play for team B
2) Team B is undefeated in the season, putting Team A in second place
3) After 8 games with no issues from the pitcher, no injured players from his pitching, not even a hit batsman, coach of Team A starts proceedings to get Team B’s pitcher removed from pitching giving Team A the chance to take the lead in the league.

Again maybe I am bias due to my experiences, but I just can’t see it any other way. I am not a lawyer so I don’t know what law, or by-law you want to use to justify this but IMO this is nothing more than a coach wanting to pound his chest and make sure his kid gets the trophy that is an inch taller than the other teams. A trophy that will collect dust until it gets boxed up and stored eventually thrown away…..but maybe not this one….it might stay forever displayed as the one that Daddy won us by getting that Scott kid banned from pitching.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Been there, done that and it stinks.

However, what do you think once you take away all the parental/political BS?

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Been there, done that and it stinks.

However, what do you think once you take away all the parental/political BS?

I think you were talking to me, if not I'll answer it anyway If I was on the board I would have asked what the reason was for asking for that kid to be removed from the pitching position.
1) How many kids has he hurt?---None
2) How many kids has he hit with a pitch?---None (from what I have read)
3) So what is your complaint? ---We can't beat them when he pitches.(or something along the same lines)

My answer to the above would have been, get your kids in the batting cages and work them on hitting fast pitching. As a rec league board member I have no reason to support the decision to ask him not to pitch. You only get better by facing better players, and to water down the league (remove star players) so that everyone is about the same level is not doing anyone any good. That is a big issue I have seen in my experience in rec league. Few coachs want to work very hard, or teach very hard. They want the teams all even so that they can say "look at billy, do what he does" instead of honest to goodness teaching kids the basics. Not sure if it is lazy, or they don't know, or can't teach but I have seen it a lot. And anytime there is a team that has a star pitcher the other teams are at a loss. Step up, get an adult that can pitch and have them throw the same speed, crank up the pitching machine, whatever it takes teach the kids to raise themselves to the level they need to in order to compete. And bottom line if you can't beat that team there is a life lesson, some people have more ability than you....learn it early it will save you a lot of pain later in life!! Some people are smarter, "see" things better and will always rank above you in certain things. Hard work can get you closer, and maybe even past them if you keep working hard....life is not fair and sometimes you lose. An important life lesson that is more important that knowing how to hit a ball...to me rec league ball is just as much about teaching life lessons as it is teaching them to play ball. And this example is a bad one to teach kids...if you can't beat 'em get 'em kicked out! (I know he wasn't kicked out just removed from pitching, didn't flow as good in the statement)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

I think you were talking to me, if not I'll answer it anyway If I was on the board I would have asked what the reason was for asking for that kid to be removed from the pitching position.
1) How many kids has he hurt?---None
2) How many kids has he hit with a pitch?---None (from what I have read)
3) So what is your complaint? ---We can't beat them when he pitches.(or something along the same lines)

If you were on the board, why did you let him join the team in midseason to begin? Why would you allow a player already participating at a higher level, play down on his nights off from his real team?

My answer to the above would have been, get your kids in the batting cages and work them on hitting fast pitching. As a rec league board member I have no reason to support the decision to ask him not to pitch. You only get better by facing better players, and to water down the league (remove star players) so that everyone is about the same level is not doing anyone any good.

Maybe you have missed the point that this is solely a developmental league, not supposed to be a competitive league though obviously some coaches believe it is. In a developmental league, from youth ball to professional ball, the "all stars" are quickly removed and placed at a higher level because there is no challenge for that player to face.

That is a big issue I have seen in my experience in rec league. Few coachs want to work very hard, or teach very hard. They want the teams all even so that they can say "look at billy, do what he does" instead of honest to goodness teaching kids the basics. Not sure if it is lazy, or they don't know, or can't teach but I have seen it a lot. And anytime there is a team that has a star pitcher the other teams are at a loss. Step up, get an adult that can pitch and have them throw the same speed, crank up the pitching machine, whatever it takes teach the kids to raise themselves to the level they need to in order to compete.

Exactly and when they can compete, the move up. As previously noted, this kid is already UP and moved down assumedly to satisfy the egos of his coach and parents.

And bottom line if you can't beat that team there is a life lesson, some people have more ability than you....learn it early it will save you a lot of pain later in life!! Some people are smarter, "see" things better and will always rank above you in certain things. Hard work can get you closer, and maybe even past them if you keep working hard....life is not fair and sometimes you lose. An important life lesson that is more important that knowing how to hit a ball...to me rec league ball is just as much about teaching life lessons as it is teaching them to play ball. And this example is a bad one to teach kids...if you can't beat 'em get 'em kicked out! (I know he wasn't kicked out just removed from pitching, didn't flow as good in the statement)

Thank you for proving my position. One of the "life lessons" that should be instilled in the youngster is to improve to move, get better and look for the challenge that will take you to the next step. It shouldn't be, "I'm not good enough to beat the players that challenge me, so I'll go beat up on the kids I know are beneath my level of play". In my neighborhood, someone who did that was considered a bully. In sports, it is known as sandbagging. And in amateur sports, sandbagging is considered such an offensive maneuver, every organization of which I am aware maintains certain levels of classification based upon age, class and/or ability/desire to compete.

Take your pick, but either way, this kid's parents and coach should be taken to task as much as the champion coach which tried to recruit him.

[DaveASA/FED]

Well I obviously missed part of the story. I didn't get the part where he came into the league part way through the season, no I would not have supported that move. I did see that he was playing in another league, but guess I never saw where it was a "better skilled" league, so I missed the fact that paraphrasing your words "he was playing down".

Bottom line all this stuff should have been covered by the league prior to this kid playing, if the coach/board member knew enough to want him to play then he should have known that he was "overly skilled" to even play in that league, so he should have been stopped from entering the league in the first place if his skills were that far above the level of the other players, and the league wishes were to keep skills even so nobodys feelings got hurt. Once you accept a kid into your league IMO as long as there isn't a safety concern, and I mean one like he has no control and has hit XX number of batters, sent X to the hospital, fractured X number of helmets...(just kidding, but some sort of ligitimate concern, not just he throws fast) then you live with the kid till the end of the season.

Again if you are correct and this kid was a ringer pulled down to this little rec league to bring someone a championship that is wrong, just as wrong as a league official trying to get him not to be able to pitch just because he wants his team to win. I'm not taking sides, just commenting that IMO you can't pull a kid because he is too good and he is beating your team.

And about a kid playing rec league when he/she also plays travel ball, in my years I have seen it several times. Mom and Dad have the time and money to take them to travel, but they still play with their friends in rec league, keeping up that team feeling for when they all play high school ball together. It has worked on most occasions in our league without issue I know we have never made the news over it anyway!!