Never saw this before....

CajunNewBlue · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 07:43am

Had the pleasure of working a championship game with a umpire whom IMHO has seen it all and done it all and I respect greatly... so long story short, I am in C, he has plate... 2 strikes on the batter, pitch comes in and is fouled directly back to the catcher whom doesn't touch it except for the fact she catches it in flight with her knees. PU calls it foul... light chirping from the defensive dugout. He sells it (I close my gaping mouth "I was amazed that she actually caught it like that) and we proceed to finish the game. Now the confusing part...
Walking out we meet up with the UIC, PU says to UIC "I think i kicked that foul ball /foul tip call" he agrees... I chime in "I never saw that before" mouth still gaping.
Ok, so 4 days later i think back on it,( I am at dinner with 2 coaches who both think the batter is out on foul tip strike 3) then I goto work and ask a coach here and he has her out on foul tip strike 3.(I have way too many coaches in my personal life

) 3 coaches thinking opposite of me? I wasn't gonna have it. So... I look in rulebooks/case books for FED, PONY, OBR (I need to buy a ASA book) both baseball and softball. And as far as i can tell he got it right at the plate. Foul tip must go directly and sharply to the catchers mitt. Is this correct or did I miss something just to be right.

DaveASA/FED · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 07:53am

I think there is a hand in there. Sharply and directly to the hand or glove and be controlled. Other than that no you got it right. Now what I would question is if that was a caught foul ball. Since it didn't go sharply and directly to the glove it can't be a foul tip.....but it could be a foul ball. And if she didn't catch it in her equipment and got control prior to it reaching the ground could it be a controlled catch?

NCASAUmp · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 08:00am

ASA - Because it didn't go directly to the glove or hand, it can't be a foul tip. Since she caught it between her knees, then grabbed the ball and had it controlled before it ever got to the ground, well... I hate to say it, but that sounds like it can only be a foul ball that was caught. I have an out.

BretMan · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 08:03am

You could have fifty coaches tell you this is a foul tip...and they would all still be wrong!

The umpire had it right on his first call. No need to second guess himself here- this is a simple foul ball.

NCASAUmp · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 08:20am

Did she pick up the ball from between her knees before it touched the ground? I was assuming she did. If so, caught foul ball. If she let it drop, just a foul ball.

greymule · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 08:43am

NCASAUmp, it cannot be a catch (caught foul ball) if it went sharp and direct back toward the catcher. Sharp and direct to the catcher can be a foul tip (if it goes to the hand or mitt first) or a foul ball, but not a catch for an out.

CajunNewBlue, whom taught you grammar?

canump · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 08:45am

All I have on this is a foul tip "foul ball." It does not meet the requirements to be a foul tip strike nor does it meet the requirements of a foul fly ball for an out. Unless I'm missing something here, which has happened before.

NCASAUmp · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 08:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by greymule

NCASAUmp, it cannot be a catch (caught foul ball) if it went sharp and direct back toward the catcher. Sharp and direct to the catcher can be a foul tip (if it goes to the hand or mitt first) or a foul ball, but not a catch for an out.

CajunNewBlue, whom taught you grammar?

Ah... I had a different image in my mind. You're right.

Dholloway1962 · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 09:02am

I think you just have a foul ball.

mick · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 09:23am

Now, I ask, what is this purpose of the defined foul tip except to allow a runner to attempt an advance without re-touching after the catch?
The play seems to me to be a caught foul ball, by all definitions, eventhough it is not a foul tip.

greymule · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 09:59am

The play seems to me to be a caught foul ball, by all definitions, even though it is not a foul tip.

Think about it. Batter swings and there's an audible "tick" but no perceptible deflection or slowing of the ball. The ball travels straight back to the catcher's chest protector and bounces off. The catcher then grabs the ball in the air with his bare hand and secures it.

How can this be anything other than merely a foul ball?

Dholloway1962 · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 10:05am

RS 22..not a catch if the ball rebounds off the cather, unless first touched by the cather's glove/mitt/hand. Must be a "perceptible arc" to be able to be determined as a caught foul ball.

robbie · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 10:26am

In NSA, clearly a foul ball (no catch).

"A batted ball that travels directly from the bat not higher than the batter's head to any part of the catcher's body or equipment other than the hand(s) or glove/mit is a foul ball is dead and is not a foul tip"

Furthermore............

"A batted ball that goes higher than the batter's head is a foul ball. It is not a foul tip. If legally caught, the batter is out."

NSA often leaves gray areas gray, but I think this one is pretty clearly spelled out.

By the way - For those wanting a catch out - Think of this....... You are saying that with less than 2 strikes, a tipped ball back to the catcher that is cought by the glove is only a strike, but if cought by the body, we have an out. Not logical.

mick · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 10:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbie

In NSA, clearly a foul ball (no catch).

"A batted ball that travels directly from the bat not higher than the batter's head to any part of the catcher's body or equipment other than the hand(s) or glove/mit is a foul ball is dead and is not a foul tip"

Furthermore............

"A batted ball that goes higher than the batter's head is a foul ball. It is not a foul tip. If legally caught, the batter is out."

NSA often leaves gray areas gray, but I think this one is pretty clearly spelled out.

By the way - For those wanting a catch out - Think of this....... You are saying that with less than 2 strikes, a tipped ball back to the catcher that is cought by the glove is only a strike, but if cought by the body, we have an out. Not logical.

Okay! Thanks. I don't get out much.

NM FP Ump · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 11, 2008, 10:45am

PU's call was right, foul ball. This can't be a foul tip because it did not go directly to the catcher's mitt/hand; it went to the catcher's equipment (assuming she had shin guards over her knees).