Little Ball Indecision

[IRISHMAFIA]

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200807043063315

The comments below are of the possibility in the play above that the ball remains perched and never drops off the top of the fence.

"That ball is live, so if that ball had stayed on top of the fence, it would be have been interesting," umpire crew chief Wally Bell said. "We're going to have to find out exactly what the ruling would be on that."

Even Mike Port, Major League Baseball's vice president of umpiring, wasn't positive.

"The guess is that if it had stayed there, it would have been a home run because it had broken the front plane, but we'll discuss it with supervisors in the next few days," he said. "The great thing about this game is that after 100 or more years, you still see things that may not have happened before."

Here we have a crew chief and the VP of umpiring not knowing what to do in a game situation. To me, any umpire with the slightest sense of the rules should be able to handle this call.

I cannot find anything in MLB rules to support ruling this as a home run. I believe the crew chief is correct, this is a live ball.

Speaking ASA, if this ball stays on top of the fence, it is live and in play.

Any other opinions?

[NDblue]

It's live and in play until when? Not at any softball field I know of but in baseball, there are some fences/walls that would be out of reach for a player to get to if said ball were perched on top. Then what?

[Dholloway1962]

I'm going with the ground rule double...same as ball lodging in fence.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NDblue

It's live and in play until when? Not at any softball field I know of but in baseball, there are some fences/walls that would be out of reach for a player to get to if said ball were perched on top. Then what?

To me, a ball is live until it becomes dead by rule.

What do you have in this play? Obviously, the players could have reached the ball. Even if the ball would be out of reach, why penalize the offense because the defence missed an opportunity to make the play?

[3SPORT]

The only way this should be a live ball is if there is no way it can become dead. By being able to be knocked off the ledge and go dead then you will have the same effect as a ground rule double or being stuck in a fence.

[NDblue]

Perched on top of a fence/wall, I'd almost have to rule it a home run. As was stated earlier, if it's on top of the fence it has broken the plane of the front edge of the fence. Isn't that by definition a home run?

[NCASAUmp]

If the ball hits the top of the fence untouched, then goes over, it's a home run. In this case, if the ball is touched, rests on the fence, then goes over, it's a 4 base award, and doesn't count against the maximum number of home runs hit by that team.

This case would be a live ball. If the players can't knock it down, I've got a blocked ball (it would be no different if the ball were stuck at the bottom of the fence or a hole in the middle of the fence). If players knock it down and it falls into playable territory, the ball's still live. If players knock it down, and it falls behind the fence into dead ball territory, I've got a 4 base award (if it was touched by a fielder) or a home run (if it was never touched by a fielder).

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

If the players can't knock it down, I've got a blocked ball (it would be no different if the ball were stuck at the bottom of the fence or a hole in the middle of the fence). If players knock it down and it falls into playable territory, the ball's still live. If players knock it down, and it falls behind the fence into dead ball territory, I've got a 4 base award (if it was touched by a fielder) or a home run (if it was never touched by a fielder).

IMO, it doesn't matter if they can knock it down or not. Once it rests on the fence it is a blocked ball and ground rule double. By your statement are we going to make the players try to knock it down? Once it rests, fielders raises arms end of play, 2 base award.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

IMO, it doesn't matter if they can knock it down or not. Once it rests on the fence it is a blocked ball and ground rule double. By your statement are we going to make the players try to knock it down? Once it rests, fielders raises arms end of play, 2 base award.

Well, if a fielder raises his/her arms, I'll call the blocked ball. If they jump and miss the ball, then I'll call the blocked ball. But if it's within easy reach and there's no danger to the player, I'm not calling a blocked ball.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by NDblue

Perched on top of a fence/wall, I'd almost have to rule it a home run. As was stated earlier, if it's on top of the fence it has broken the plane of the front edge of the fence. Isn't that by definition a home run?

One other thing... If a ball were to break the plane of the front edge of the fence as you described, but the fielder reached over the fence and caught it before it came into contact with dead ball territory, would you still rule it a home run?

[NDblue]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

One other thing... If a ball were to break the plane of the front edge of the fence as you described, but the fielder reached over the fence and caught it before it came into contact with dead ball territory, would you still rule it a home run?

You're not comparing the same thing. If the ball is still in flight, then there's no way it can be perched on the top of a fence is there?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by NDblue

You're not comparing the same thing. If the ball is still in flight, then there's no way it can be perched on the top of a fence is there?

What I'm getting at is that there is no "plane" as you described. If it touches an object behind the fence (such as a pole or tree), that's one thing. However, just because it goes beyond the "plane" of the fence does not make the ball unplayable. A fielder could still jump, catch the ball beyond the "plane," and bring it down for an out if the ball was never touched by anything else.

Just trying to keep you away from focusing on something that doesn't exist in ASA.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Lot of opinions, but not one rule citation.

As noted, the "plane" means absolutely nothing, including in MLB unless there is an unpublished interpretation (not in the rule book).

The ball is not stuck, lodged in or have passed through any fence or structure or is it unavailable to the defense to play.

To rule this a GRD, the ball would have to be dead. There is no rule to substantiate a dead ball. However, if you rule the top of the fence a dead ball territory, you must also rule that any ball which hits the top of the fence dead. And a catch by a player which climbs to the top of the fence (which, by rule, is permissible), no catch.

[NCASAUmp]

Okay, ASA...

4 Base Award - 5-8-A (note a)

2 Base Award - 8-5-I

Home Run - 8-5-H

All 3 of which are covered in RS #26.

In the sitch provided, the ball remained in the field of play and did not clear the fence. Live ball, play on.

[wadeintothem]

Well.. IMO, its obviously not a home run. The "front plane" is new and bogus.
either it goes over the fence or it doesnt... and it didnt.

So that leaves ground rule double or live ball.

Again.. it either goes over the fence, gets lodged, etc.. or it doesnt... and it didnt.

So... that leaves live ball.

Live ball for $500 Alex.