Out or award base or bases

[canump]

I was just getting to bed last night when one of our local coaches called me about a play that happened last night. Visiting team is on 3rd base side of diamond. This call did not alter game out come as his team, the home team won by 8 runs but he was just wondering.
Situation > 17,18 year old girls, 2 out with runners on 2nd & 3rd. Shallow pop fly to left feild where left feilder had to come charging towards the foul line in order to catch the fly. Angle of run was such that when catch was made she just kept running straight to gate opening for her bench. F7 had to make running shoe string type of catch, started to bobble ball immediadtely, kept running towards bench eventually trapping ball between arm and her stomach about 3 steps before gate opening. This was how she enter her bench. The plate ump who is in his 3rd year of umpiring ruled the batter out.
This was in the 6th inning with the home team up 8, coach came out not to argue the call but to get the ruleing. PU told him that since control was made before feilder entered dead ball territory the out stands. Coach figures since he's ahead, just needing 3 outs to get out of the rain that started falling the previous inning and this being a young umpire he'd let it slide.
When coach called me to get my opinion I told him I would get the PU version 1st then I would get back to him. I'm here at work so I have yet to talk to this guy so I thought I would send it out to you guys n gals to get your feed back. Me I'm thinking it's an invalid catch as control was not in glove or hand, dead ball when F7 enters dead ball area, one base award to runners, B1 on 1st.
your opinions please.

[DaveASA/FED]

Well I would agree can't be a catch till it is controlled in hand or glove (also a hand controlling the glove ) but I am not sure about the entering DBT, I think it would have depended on the foul / fair of the ball. If the ball would have been fair I think you have the entering dead ball area, but I also wonder if it is 1 base or two, isn't the 1 base for a catch and carry? If we didn't have a catch we can't get this one can we? I agree it was probably involuntary, but I'd have to look at the book to see exactly how that's worded.... Now if the ball would have been foul (first touched over foul territory) then I am not sure if the entering DBT would come into play, since no catch runners couldn't have advanced on a foul ball.

So I guess this gives me 4 questions
1) Catch / no catch (my vote is no catch)
2) Would there be a penalty for entering DBT
3) would the answer to 2 depend on the status of the ball, foul / fair
4) Would the award be 1 base or 2?

[greymule]

PU told him that since control was made before feilder entered dead ball territory the out stands.

But you said that control wasn't established until the fielder entered DBT. Apparently you and the PU disagree on this judgment part of the call.

Me I'm thinking it's an invalid catch as control was not in glove or hand, dead ball when F7 enters dead ball area, one base award to runners, B1 on 1st.

I think I understand the above sentence, but a crucial element is missing in the OP: Was the ball fair or foul? Was the fielder's first touch of the ball over fair territory or foul? According to your description, in neither case was it a legal catch. If the ball was first touched foul, then it's just a foul ball. If the ball was fair, I guess you would treat it not as catch and carry but as a fair ball that bounces off a fielder into foul DBT and award two bases.

[Dholloway1962]

IMO,

If ball was first touched fair all runners awarded 1 base. Based on unintentionally carrying ball into DBT, Rule 8-5-J.

If ball first touched foul, you have a foul ball. My question on that, since it was a live ball when first touched, do you award all runners 1 base and rule a foul ball on the batter?

[youngump]

I don't have a book here to look this up, but isn't it two bases from the time it left in play territory since it's a ball intentionally deflected out of play?
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HOW TO ROLL A BLUNT

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by youngump

I don't have a book here to look this up, but isn't it two bases from the time it left in play territory since it's a ball intentionally deflected out of play?

If intentional yes it is 2 bases. OP sounds like unintentional, momentum took her there

[MNBlue]

I agree with greymule.

We don't have a catch, so we can't enforce the catch/carry rule.

If batted ball is ruled fair, two base award.

If batted ball is ruled foul, foul ball.

[youngump]

To be clear with two outs, if we have a catch, there is no rule in question. The fielder can go into DBT with the ball. (Albeit, I'd rather they left it on the mound for the next pitcher.)
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Problems with wellbutrin

[Dakota]

While the rule is informally called "catch and carry" the rule itself only says "unintentionally carried." It says nothing about requiring a catch first.

[canump]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Well I would agree can't be a catch till it is controlled in hand or glove (also a hand controlling the glove ) but I am not sure about the entering DBT, I think it would have depended on the foul / fair of the ball. If the ball would have been fair I think you have the entering dead ball area, but I also wonder if it is 1 base or two, isn't the 1 base for a catch and carry? If we didn't have a catch we can't get this one can we? I agree it was probably involuntary, but I'd have to look at the book to see exactly how that's worded.... Now if the ball would have been foul (first touched over foul territory) then I am not sure if the entering DBT would come into play, since no catch runners couldn't have advanced on a foul ball.

So I guess this gives me 4 questions
1) Catch / no catch (my vote is no catch)
2) Would there be a penalty for entering DBT
3) would the answer to 2 depend on the status of the ball, foul / fair
4) Would the award be 1 base or 2?

Sorry it was first touched in fair territory.

[MNBlue]

In my cave, when ASA 1.Catch and Carry says:
"A legal catch that a defensive player carries into dead ball territory."

I believe it is pretty much stating that the rules for a legal catch come into play. With that in mind, if F7 didn't 'legally catch' the ball, then we can't apply the unintentional catch/carry rule, ASA 8.5.J

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA

To start, there is no catch.

As previously noted, if first touch was over foul territory, it is simply a foul ball.

If fair, it is a ground rule double based upon 8.5.I. Since there was never control on the field of play, I don't see how this can be handled any differently than a ball which deflects off a fielder and out of play.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

... ASA 1.Catch and Carry says:
"A legal catch that a defensive player carries into dead ball territory."...

Yeah, I know, but the rule itself does not use the phrase "catch and carry." Just "carry." I wasn't arguing the interp; only pointing out the rule book defines a term and then does not use it in the rule.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA

To start, there is no catch.

As previously noted, if first touch was over foul territory, it is simply a foul ball.

If fair, it is a ground rule double based upon 8.5.I. Since there was never control on the field of play, I don't see how this can be handled any differently than a ball which deflects off a fielder and out of play.

So if a fielder intentionally kicked a ball over the fence you'd award a ground rule double?
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ExotycCharm

[MNBlue]

ASA 8.5.K would be applied then. Two base award from the time the ball was kicked.