Eager Partner?

[BlitzkriegBob]

From a Fed game last week where I am PU. Partner is pretty good, no real problems with him (first time working together). First occasion, lead runner coming in to 3B (trailing BR still on bases), I am down the line getting in to position with a throw coming in. I see BU coming over so I verbalize "I got third" (loud enough to make the 3B coach turn towards me), but BU continues to move in. Luckily ball gets away so there's no call to make. Second occasion, we have a rundown between 2B and 3B. I am in position to take the lead, but BU is right smack dab in the middle, so I verbalize "I got this end" (again loud enough to make the 3B coach turn). There is a series of quick throws as the BU does his imitation of one of those target ducks that twirls back and forth before the tag is made as the runner is retreating to 2B and BU rings her up.

My questions is this: After letting the BU know that I am there to make my call and he is still right there to also make the call, what should I do? In both cases, I was thinking to myself that I was going to let him make the call (and the rundown did turn out to be his call) in order to save us from the possible double call, but what should I have done?

He was a 20-year veteran and after the game he was more concerned with fraternizing with the coaches than reviewing game so we didn't get to discuss the coverages. I know we pre-gamed, but I don't remember for sure if we went over these situations. More than likely we didn't.

[MGKBLUE]

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

My questions is this: After letting the BU know that I am there to make my call and he is still right there to also make the call, what should I do? In both cases, I was thinking to myself that I was going to let him make the call (and the rundown did turn out to be his call) in order to save us from the possible double call, but what should I have done?

Although the incorrect mechanic by the BU, IMO you would have done the correct thing. If a call is to be made, look up and see if the BU is going to make a call. If so, let the BU make the call.

Also, although there was no time for a post game meeting, I would have called the BU the next day to discuss.

[wadeintothem]

I say dont call him.. For what purpose? If its like my area, you may not see this guy again for perhaps years.. who knows? He surely doesnt want to hear from you and wouldnt listen anyway.

In a game with a guy like that.. just wait and see if they will make the call. If he doesnt, make it.. if he does.. let him. No post game either.. just get in your car, go home, vent a little here, and forgidabodit.

[Stu Clary]

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

...and after the game he was more concerned with fraternizing with the coaches than reviewing game...

Block him in Arbiter. Life is too short to deal with guys like that.

[kcg NC2Ablu]

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

From a Fed game last week where I am PU. Partner is pretty good, no real problems with him (first time working together). First occasion, lead runner coming in to 3B (trailing BR still on bases), I am down the line getting in to position with a throw coming in. I see BU coming over so I verbalize "I got third" (loud enough to make the 3B coach turn towards me), but BU continues to move in. Luckily ball gets away so there's no call to make. Second occasion, we have a rundown between 2B and 3B. I am in position to take the lead, but BU is right smack dab in the middle, so I verbalize "I got this end" (again loud enough to make the 3B coach turn). There is a series of quick throws as the BU does his imitation of one of those target ducks that twirls back and forth before the tag is made as the runner is retreating to 2B and BU rings her up.

My questions is this: After letting the BU know that I am there to make my call and he is still right there to also make the call, what should I do? In both cases, I was thinking to myself that I was going to let him make the call (and the rundown did turn out to be his call) in order to save us from the possible double call, but what should I have done?

He was a 20-year veteran and after the game he was more concerned with fraternizing with the coaches than reviewing game so we didn't get to discuss the coverages. I know we pre-gamed, but I don't remember for sure if we went over these situations. More than likely we didn't.

You did the right thing backing off and letting him have it if he is going to take it and then if he doesnt make a call then you now have to bang it bigger than you would have had you been able to be sure you had the call and not wondering if you did or didnt. The NCAA has a communication thing that I think is really cool, if in your pre game you can discuss it with your partner, What the NCAA manual has in it is when in a rundown or situation where your partner is calling you off but you cant look over to him/her to let them know you heard them then touch your ear closest to that umpire that is calling you off. This is a low profile signal that you and your partners can use for communication. That being said on my pregame "cheat sheet" I have rundowns and coverage on there those are always situations that can screw with even the best of people. As for the post game... if your partner doesnt want to then just get in the car and drive away listening to whatever calms you down and later vent ... let it go ... hopefully like someone else suggested you can block him on arbiter

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by kcg NC2Ablu

Y'What the NCAA manual has in it is when in a rundown or situation where your partner is calling you off but you cant look over to him/her to let them know you heard them then touch your ear closest to that umpire that is calling you off. This is a low profile signal that you and your partners can use for communication. '

Thats terrible. You dont need a secret signal.. Rundowns are not rocket surgery. If you are boxing the play and you just say "I got 3" or whatever, then your partner SHOULD know that if the play is in that direction, its yours, if its in his direction, say 2, its his. You dont need to touch your ears or do top secret stuff, just speak. A good partner hears and understands what it means and knows what to do. I got other things to do that to watch an umpire to see if he his touching his ear. If I scratch my @ss in response, that means, speak, so I know what the heck you are doing.

[Al]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Thats terrible. You dont need a secret signal.. Rundowns are not rocket surgery. If you are boxing the play and you just say "I got 3" or whatever, then your partner SHOULD know that if the play is in that direction, its yours, if its in his direction, say 2, its his. You dont need to touch your ears or do top secret stuff, just speak. A good partner hears and understands what it means and knows what to do. I got other things to do that to watch an umpire to see if he his touching his ear. If I scratch my @ss in response, that means, speak, so I know what the heck you are doing.

That last line says it all ...Funny stuff! Fun at the ole' ball park! ...Al

[kcg NC2Ablu]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Thats terrible. You dont need a secret signal.. Rundowns are not rocket surgery. If you are boxing the play and you just say "I got 3" or whatever, then your partner SHOULD know that if the play is in that direction, its yours, if its in his direction, say 2, its his. You dont need to touch your ears or do top secret stuff, just speak. A good partner hears and understands what it means and knows what to do. I got other things to do that to watch an umpire to see if he his touching his ear. If I scratch my @ss in response, that means, speak, so I know what the heck you are doing.

First of all its not secret if you pre-game... second of all you are communicatiing with your partner. I have worked wiht a guy who wears hearing aids and cant here all that well so when you scream Ive got third he mau\y not here you. Third of all that signal allows your partner to keep their eyes on the action and let you know that he/she knows youve came down to help. Also what if you cant here them respond. now you have no signal no verbal and you sir are Fd because you dont know what your partner is doing and you dont know what you should be doing because you have to react to your partner in that situation. Also you knowing what you should be doing is great and the key to setting up success but your partner not knowing or even if your partner knows and doesnt let you know you are still screwed. BTW that ear thing is in the NCAA manual not NFHS so I am not saying go and do it and that mechanic was put in the manual by Ed Crane and Emily Alexander along with the other people in the national umpire improvement program Who really know what is good and what is not good. The low profile thing is like the same with asking for outs and giving the response in NCAA its done on the pants as to keep your arms in and not be signaling to god and everybody that you have two outs. The ear thing is not the only communication that should be done but it is CERTAINLY a helper.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Thats terrible. You dont need a secret signal.. Rundowns are not rocket surgery. If you are boxing the play and you just say "I got 3" or whatever, then your partner SHOULD know that if the play is in that direction, its yours, if its in his direction, say 2, its his. You dont need to touch your ears or do top secret stuff, just speak. A good partner hears and understands what it means and knows what to do. I got other things to do that to watch an umpire to see if he his touching his ear. If I scratch my @ss in response, that means, speak, so I know what the heck you are doing.

So, am I to understand that now you don't believe in umpire to umpire signals for communication? You know, things like holding your hand to your left chest to indicate IFR being in effect, or wiping it away with your right hand to your left forearm? All this is is another umpire to umpire signal. If you are too busy yourself to notice it, then that is okay. But at least you were replied back to. There are all kinds of umpire to umpire signals that are "approved" signals. I don't see a problem with using them.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

So, am I to understand that now you don't believe in umpire to umpire signals for communication? You know, things like holding your hand to your left chest to indicate IFR being in effect, or wiping it away with your right hand to your left forearm? All this is is another umpire to umpire signal. If you are too busy yourself to notice it, then that is okay. But at least you were replied back to. There are all kinds of umpire to umpire signals that are "approved" signals. I don't see a problem with using them.

How did you leap from "Thats terrible. You dont need a secret signal" to "you don't believe in umpire to umpire signals for communication"?

When I read that, I understood him to mean that a secret signal is not required for a rundown. And I have to agree; in the middle of the action, a signal like touching your ear seems far too easy to miss. A simple verbal response would work better, imo.

But when there is no action, the standard umpire-to-umpire signals are certainly appropriate. That's completely different from what was being discussed.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by celebur

How did you leap from "Thats terrible. You dont need a secret signal" to "you don't believe in umpire to umpire signals for communication"?

When I read that, I understood him to mean that a secret signal is not required for a rundown. And I have to agree; in the middle of the action, a signal like touching your ear seems far too easy to miss. A simple verbal response would work better, imo.

But when there is no action, the standard umpire-to-umpire signals are certainly appropriate. That's completely different from what was being discussed.

You should read my post, and quote the entire thing, instead of just the part that you deem necessary. If you had, you would notice I was asking a question, to make a point. Yes. As I have stated, many of these signals go unnoticed. However, we still continue to use them. I don't believe I have ever stated whether or not I agree with this particular signal at all. What I did state is, it is the recommended signal for NCAA, and being such, I will use it when I call their games.

In the NCAA they advise using this signal. Absolutely nothing secret about it. It is in print in the CCA Umpire's Manual. Same as the other umpire to umpire communication signals. So, this is exactly what is being discussed. Not, as you stated (and that can be seen by the fact that I quoted you completely above) something "completely different."

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

So, am I to understand that now you don't believe in umpire to umpire signals for communication?

No, you should understand I dont believe in dumb signals when verbal communication works just fine or better. Ive worked with many of you college guys and you do this collar thing for good call and all this lame stuff. Its just dumb. IFR or "gimme the count" and some other stuff are fine.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

No, you should understand I dont believe in dumb signals when verbal communication works just fine or better. Ive worked with many of you college guys and you do this collar thing for good call and all this lame stuff. Its just dumb. IFR or "gimme the count" and some other stuff are fine.

What the hell is the "collar thing?" Apparently, not an approved signal, as I have never seen or heard of it. I still haven't weighed in with my opinion on the response signal for someone coming up to cover the other end of the play, just stated that it is in fact a legitimate, approved signal in the NCAA. Therefore, it is no different than any other approved umpire to umpire signal in any other code.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

No, you should understand I dont believe in dumb signals when verbal communication works just fine or better. Ive worked with many of you college guys and you do this collar thing for good call and all this lame stuff. Its just dumb. IFR or "gimme the count" and some other stuff are fine.

And playing devil's advocate here, why not just yell at your partner, "the infield fly rule is on," or "what do you have for a count," (which I believe is still the recommended ASA way) instead of using signals? Don't you think that when these signals came into being, some umpire, somewhere, was saying "I am not going to use these signals, they are just dumb?"

Obviously, though, enough umpires accepted the change and applied them, and they have now become the accepted norm.

[kcg NC2Ablu]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

No, you should understand I dont believe in dumb signals when verbal communication works just fine or better. Ive worked with many of you college guys and you do this collar thing for good call and all this lame stuff. Its just dumb. IFR or "gimme the count" and some other stuff are fine.

So just to go down the slippery slope here if some signals are dumb but others are fine... do you pick and choose which rules to apply based on what you think is dumb ... we enforce all the rules for a reason those signals are all used for a reason