Rule 8-7-C (ASA) Clarification

[kyleflan]

As I was reading through my rulebook earlier, I came across a rule that I guess I've never paid much attention to. It's under rule 8, Batter-Runner and Runner. The rule reads as follows:

When on a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball, or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base. If the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base first occupied, the force play is reinstated and the runner may again be put out if the defense tags the runner or the base to which the runner is forced.

Now this is quite the hypothetical situation here, but let's imagine R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B. B3 hits a ball to an infielder and is retired at 1B on the force. F3 then throws the ball to F5. R1, prior to reaching 3B, retreats to 2B, since the force is no longer in effect. However, R2 has already advanced to B2, and is occupying it. R2 noticing R1, decides to retreat back to first to open the base up for R1.

Now, can the defense simply throw the ball to first and it be a force out, since R2 was a forced runner that touched the next base? Or must the defense tag R2?

I'm sure this situation is unlikely to occur as outlined above in a game, but I just like to make sure I have all the bases covered. (Pun intended)

Also, another question regarding force plays. Yesterday I had a local 14U game. I was the BU behind F6 with runner on 3B. D3K, batter runs to first. F3 bobbles the ball, then drops it as she falls to the ground to retrieve it. F3 secures the ball in the glove, crawls to 1B and touches the base with her free hand. Close play. I call the runner out. The offensive coaches didn't give me a hard time, as I knew both of them fairly well, but between innings wanted some clarification. The first thing they wondered was why 1B was my call since I was behind F6, to which I replied that all bases were my responsibility and perhaps maybe the league should hire three umpires per game (In good humor of course). Next, one of the coaches wanted to know how the runner was out whenever the fielder touched the base with her free hand. This got my mind going, as I've never really thought about this, but simply knew on a force that fielder must tag the base. I told her it was essentially the same as F3 catching the ball and tagging the base with her foot.

Was I right on this call?

-Kyle

[wadeintothem]

If the force is off, it is not reinstated. The rule applies as follows: R1@1B.. single, R1 goes to 2B, BR safe @1B.. R1 retreats back to 1B (for whatever reason), the force at 2b is back on.

If the BR is out in the above, the force is not reinstated at 2B.

[wadeintothem]

As to your second question.. of course its the right call and its exactly the same as the foot, but, face, or whatever else she can get on the bag for a "force" out (no tangents about 1B forces from the peanut gallery please). All that is required by rule is that the fielder is in possession of the ball and she touches the base.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

As to your second question.. of course its the right call and its exactly the same as the foot, but, face, or whatever else she can get on the bag for a "force" out (no tangents about 1B forces from the peanut gallery please). All that is required by rule is that the fielder is in possession of the ball and she touches the base.

Years ago, someone on this board stated it like this.

If F3 has the ball, falls, and her pony tail is resting on the base, the runner
is out.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by whiskers_ump

Years ago, someone on this board stated it like this.

If F3 has the ball, falls, and her pony tail is resting on the base, the runner
is out.

I would LOVE to call that

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I would LOVE to call that

So would I, especially since I mostly call men's games! We've got a few mullets around here.

[NCASAUmp]

And as for the second question in the OP, the wording is "a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball." It can be a foot, hand, knee, or even if s/he sits on it.

And yes, I've seen the latter.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

So would I, especially since I mostly call men's games! We've got a few mullets around here.

Hey, it's been close to 30-something years,BUT, I used to have one of those pony tails - it got to about 2/3rd's of the way to my waist.

Funny thing now - whenever my hair begins to touch my ears, I can't wait to get to a barber shop.

Since at least 1984 until the 2007 rule book this was in the Definitions section under Force Out. I suppose it was moved because it makes more sense for it to be where it is now. I've never had to call it and I've never seen it called. As far as I can determine ASA is the only organization that has this rule.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by GrumpUmp

Since at least 1984 until the 2007 rule book this was in the Definitions section under Force Out. I suppose it was moved because it makes more sense for it to be where it is now. I've never had to call it and I've never seen it called. As far as I can determine ASA is the only organization that has this rule.

Well, except MLB/OBR and NFHS.

I dont know any other rule sets well enough to comment... but I'm quite sure its the same in every rule set, even the yemeni slayer of the infidel league.

[greymule]

Regarding force outs, kyleflan, ASA has two rules that do not always match those of other codes:

1. Once the batter/BR has been put out, all force plays are off. For example, Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, one out. Charles gets a hit down the right field line to score Abel. Baker misses 2B on his way to 3B, and Charles is thrown out at 2B trying for a double. The defense appeals Baker's miss of 2B and the umpire upholds the appeal for the third out. Ruling: The inning is over on the third out, but Abel's run counts. Baker's miss of 2B is not considered a force play, as the BR Charles was put out previously. Some other codes consider Baker's miss a force play (and nullify the run) because (a) Baker was forced when he missed 2B, or (b) he was forced to 2B when the play began.

2. Rule 8-7-C applies not only to runners, but also to the BR. If the BR reaches 1B and retreats toward home, he also reinstates the "force" and can be put out by tagging 1B. Other codes do not technically consider the out at 1B a force out, and once the BR touches 1B, he must be tagged even if he retreats toward home. (This has nothing to do with stepping backward to avoid a tag.)

wadeintothem, you're right that the YSIF also reinstates the force when the runner retreats. I'm checking to see whether they have a case play at 1B, though. (You should see the penalty for running the bases in the reverse order for the purposes of making a travesty of the game. The runner is out and . . . yow!)

Sorry folks. I should have been more specific. I was not talking about force outs in general but the ASA rule about retreating back to the base a runner or BR was initially forced to after touching the succeeding base.

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Well, except MLB/OBR and NFHS.

I dont know any other rule sets well enough to comment... but I'm quite sure its the same in every rule set, even the yemeni slayer of the infidel league.

I should have specified softball organizations.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by GrumpUmp

Sorry folks. I should have been more specific. I was not talking about force outs in general but the ASA rule about retreating back to the base a runner or BR was initially forced to after touching the succeeding base.

I should have specified softball organizations.

NFHS Softball Rule 2-24-4

If a forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base she had first occupied, the force play is reinstated and she may again be put out if the defense tags the base to which she is forced.

NCAA Softball

1.49 Force Play
A play in which the base runner loses her right to occupy a base because the batter becomes a batter-runner and before the batter-runner or a trailing runner has not yet been put out. When a forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason toward the base she last occupied, the force play is reinstated.

Thank you Dakota.

[wadeintothem]

OBR 7.08e: However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreat for any reason toward the base he had last occupied, the
force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tag the base to which he is forced;

YSIF 2.0d:
If a forced runner retreats, like a cowardly dog, for any reason towards the base he had first occupied, the force play is reinstated and he may again be put out by tagging the base. The coward may be subsequently beaten severely with your sandal.