DP/Flex Redux

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Saying it is not a sub just confuses the issue more; technically the position is not subbed in or out, but the player is.

If the FLEX is not playing defense you are playing with nine. If the player that played the FLEX position is out of the game, then she was either subbed out by a player from the bench (playing 10) or by the DP (playing 9). The DP player that was previously on the bench during the defensive half of the inningis now in the game at that time.

The reverse is true if the DP is no longer in the game; you are playing with nine. If the player that played the DP position is out of the game, then she was either subbed out by a player from the bench (playing 10) or by the FLEX (playing 9). The FLEX player that was previously on the bench during the offensive half of the inning is now in the game at that time.

Changes to the DP/FLEX players are controlled by the Substitution Rules, including ReEntry, Unreported Sub, and Illegal Sub. I find the rule easier to understand when I consider player changes as substitutions.

WMB

I think you are confusing the issue even more. The DP/FLEX is covered by the Players, Coaches and Substitute Rule (4). Neither is even mentioned in ASA 4.6 Substitutes/Illegal Player until Para. F which notes the penalties for different violations.

When the DP leaves the game it IS a substitution because a player not in the batting order is moving into such a position. When the FLEX leaves the game NO other player is entering the game.

Even the definition of "Substitute" in Rule 1 indicates the term does not apply in the scenario where the FLEX leaves the game. A player is not "subbed" in or out. A player is either a substitute or re-entry which replaces another or is replaced by another in the batter line-up. When the FLEX leaves the game, neither occurs.

If you want to use it as a tool to remember, no problem, but I don't believe it should not be sold as a fact of the rule.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I think you are confusing the issue even more. The DP/FLEX is covered by the Players, Coaches and Substitute Rule (4). Neither is even mentioned in ASA 4.6 Substitutes/Illegal Player until Para. F which notes the penalties for different violations.

Fed's rule book is organized somewhat differently. The entire DP/FLEX rule is Art. 6 of Rule 3-3 SUBSTITUTING. DP/FLEX is also mentioned in Art. 2 of rule 3-3, the first sentence of which reads "A substitute may replace any player when the ball is dead or time
has been called." While 3-3-2 does make it clear that DP replacing FLEX or FLEX replacing DP is different from a "normal" (my word) substitute, it also clearly groups this change under the general topic of "substituting."

All of this brings to mind one other thing that makes the DP/FLEX rule appear complicated - the tendency of umpires to discuss the rule with dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin technicality WRT terminology.

For all intents, purposes, and consequences of the rule, the DP playing defense for FLEX is a substitute from the perspective of the FLEX player, but not from the perspective of the DP. Hence, it is a "half substitute."

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Andy,

I've had similar conversations with coaches, but usually they want to use DH rather than DP/FLEX. I tell them they can, so long as they call their DH a "DP" and list their pitcher as FLEX in the 10 spot in the lineup. (Usually they want the "DH" to bat for the pitcher, as in baseball...)

When I explain they can use DP/FLEX exactly the same way as a DH (even though that is a limiting way to use it), they are happy.

Perfectly understandable...but in the case of the coach I was referring to, he wanted to bat 10 players!

[argodad]

Originally Posted by Andy

Scott - I just wanted to let you know that I feel your pain.

I received a report from an umpire last week that a JV coach (NFHS Rules) presented a lineup at the plate meeting with an EP. When he was informed that HS rules do not allow for an EP, only the DP/FLEX, he (the coach) said that he never did understand that "DP/FLEX thing" and preferred to use the EP, and he had been doing it all season (about 10 games so far)!

While I have my doubts about the validity of his claim, it certainly would not surprise me if he had been allowed to use the EP previously.

So now a memo goes out to all of our HS umpires......

I had a 9th grade / JV / Varsity tripleheader a couple of weeks ago. One Freshman coach gave me a lineup with a Designated Hitter. I told him that it was a DP and FLEX, and that the FLEX goes in the 10th spot. He told me, "I was a baseball guy. I use the DH." I told him that wasn't an option. He was a bit miffed until about the middle of the game when someone convinced him that he could use his DP on defense. Now he thinks DP/FLEX might be a good thing and that maybe he should study the rule.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by argodad

I had a 9th grade / JV / Varsity tripleheader a couple of weeks ago. One Freshman coach gave me a lineup with a Designated Hitter. I told him that it was a DP and FLEX, and that the FLEX goes in the 10th spot. He told me, "I was a baseball guy. I use the DH." I told him that wasn't an option. He was a bit miffed until about the middle of the game when someone convinced him that he could use his DP on defense. Now he thinks DP/FLEX might be a good thing and that maybe he should study the rule.

Thank you for promoting an increase in knowledge instead of just working around it.