Look back rule question

[jmkupka]

"A batter-runner who rounds first base toward second base may stop, but then must immediately without stopping return to first or attempt to advance non-stop to second base."

Your opinion, please, at which point you will ring up the batter-runner:

R1 on 3b, batter-runner (base on balls) rounds first and trots slowly nonstop toward 2nd (no action by the pitcher holding the ball in the circle). Batter-runner gets tired of waiting for a throw and takes the one stop (that she has coming to her) and immediately heads nonstop back to 1st.

Is she out? Must the one stop be made right after rounding 1st, or can it be anywhere between the 2 bases?

Sorry if this is an old worn out topic...

[Dakota]

Anywhere between the bases.

[Dakota]

One more thing... welcome to the board!

[wadeintothem]

Are the runner and/or coaches dumb? Yes

Out? No

And welcome!

[Skahtboi]

You've been given the correct answer, so just let me add my welcome to the board as well.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Are the runner and/or coaches dumb? Yes

Your thinking??

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Anywhere between the bases.

And please do noy let anyone tell you this is an overrun, the NFHS overrun rule does not apply to rounding or turning.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Your thinking??

what?

[jmkupka]

Thanks for the welcome, and for everyone's response.

My thinking is that the book reads "one stop" (my quotes, not the book's). I interpret that to mean she can trot to within an inch of 2b before turning & returning nonstop to 1b.

That said, I cannot find a single highly experienced umpire with whom I work that will agree with my opinion. I'm green compared to these guys (6 years ASA), and I'm losing my credibility with them by debating this point.

They will give the BR 2-4 steps around 1B, but no more.

[jmkupka]

to Cecil,

No, this isn't an overrun issue, just a matter of how far she can run before deciding to return to 1b.

I tell you, they won't even discuss it with me: "she goes more than a couple steps and I'm ringing her up".

My problem is I can't defend that call to the offensive coach.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

to Cecil,

No, this isn't an overrun issue, just a matter of how far she can run before deciding to return to 1b.

I tell you, they won't even discuss it with me: "she goes more than a couple steps and I'm ringing her up".

My problem is I can't defend that call to the offensive coach.

I believe everyone responding is in agreement with you. What you need to do with your 'experienced umpires' is what so many on this message board do: ask them for a reference in the rule book.

I dont' think they are not going to be able to find one.

[DaveASA/FED]

Agreed ask for the rules reference. Alot of the experienced umpires will quote things and tell you like it is....but you have them crack open that book and they go....wow, I don't remember it being worded that way.

One other way to approach them is to do the following. Look up all the rules in your book that pertain to the subject you are discussing (LBR in this case) including any and all case plays POE(points of emphasis), RS (rules supplements) everything in writing in the book on it. Then say something like "Hey after we talked I looked this up and I am struggling on finding where the 2-4 step part of the rule is" depending on the personality this will open their mind to looking sometimes, and not seem so much like a smarta$$ new guy trying to show them up. Again those who really know things are open to discussions and open to reviewing the book together with younger (experience wise) umpires, those who know it all take a little bit more convincing to dig into the book, and the above "help me find this" approach sometimes does it....while still keeping you friendly with each other.

Cecil,
I think what wade is saying is IHO it is stupid to return to 1st base when you are that close to 2nd....if F1 didn't take the bait and play on you when you jogged to 2nd she most likely won't when you jog back to 1st.....and the only thing you have gained is the opportunity for the defense to get a double play, instead of having two runners in scoring position.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Cecil,
I think what wade is saying is IHO it is stupid to return to 1st base when you are that close to 2nd....if F1 didn't take the bait and play on you when you jogged to 2nd she most likely won't when you jog back to 1st.....and the only thing you have gained is the opportunity for the defense to get a double play, instead of having two runners in scoring position.

Of course, it is dumb base running. Why they are trying this lame cat and mouse game, risking double play, risking even a force ofr a runner going to 2b is beyond me. Umpires are getting it wrong a) its abnormal b) they dont have a thorough understanding of the rules.

Its one of those things you surely dont see often (actually I've NEVER seen it).

I would suggest, rather than arguing what SHOULD be virtually a moot point, because it shouldnt happen.. is teach good base running.

[Dakota]

Where I've actually seen umpires call this wrong is either

1) They do not believe the runner CAN round and stop on a walk after F1 has the ball in the circle and will call the out if she does not continue on to 2B once she rounds, or

2) As the OP stated, they will "give" the runner a couple of steps, and beyond that consider her committed to 2B without stopping. So, she will be rung up if she takes, for example, 4 steps instead of 2.

No sensible runner is going to go to within 1 inch of 2B and then return, but it is the extreme example used to teach the proper rule application.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Agreed ask for the rules reference. Alot of the experienced umpires will quote things and tell you like it is....but you have them crack open that book and they go....wow, I don't remember it being worded that way.

One other way to approach them is to do the following. Look up all the rules in your book that pertain to the subject you are discussing (LBR in this case) including any and all case plays POE(points of emphasis), RS (rules supplements) everything in writing in the book on it. Then say something like "Hey after we talked I looked this up and I am struggling on finding where the 2-4 step part of the rule is" depending on the personality this will open their mind to looking sometimes, and not seem so much like a smarta$$ new guy trying to show them up. Again those who really know things are open to discussions and open to reviewing the book together with younger (experience wise) umpires, those who know it all take a little bit more convincing to dig into the book, and the above "help me find this" approach sometimes does it....while still keeping you friendly with each other.

Cecil,
I think what wade is saying is IHO it is stupid to return to 1st base when you are that close to 2nd....if F1 didn't take the bait and play on you when you jogged to 2nd she most likely won't when you jog back to 1st.....and the only thing you have gained is the opportunity for the defense to get a double play, instead of having two runners in scoring position.

Maybe they are in a timed game and trying to take time off the clock.