Inning ending mistake

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Had this one last year, in a competetive high school summer league...(ie: they should have known better).

Runner on third. I have one out (which was correct). Batter grounds out, 6-3. F3 rolls ball to the circle and the defense hustles off the field.

Runner at third begins to wander toward her dugout. Third base coach, maybe after noticing that I'm still watching the field, alertly tells runner to "run home!". She does and scores without a play.

Defensive coach gets bent out of shape. Seems to think the whole thing was my fault. Guess he thinks I should have killed the play and protected his team from their own blunder.

Just to be 100% sure, I check both books and both had only two outs (hey, it's not like I've ever missed one before, but had this one right).

Coach is still fuming. My response: "Coach, I didn't say there were three outs and I didn't tell your team to leave the field! They did that all on their own. Get back out there- we have another batter!".

Bret,
I had a similar happening in a high school game a couple of years ago. What turned out to be the winning run scored when the defense dropped the ball in the circle and left the field. A very funny prelude was that the defense's pitching coach had just yelled to the team that there were 2 outs (I only showed 1 and so did my partner). So nobody was nuts enough to say their mistake was our fault - but they did kinda lay into the assistant coach.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Steve M

... A very funny prelude was that the defense's pitching coach had just yelled to the team that there were 2 outs (I only showed 1 and so did my partner)....

Would you ever consider correcting the coach who yells this to his team?

Originally Posted by Dakota

Would you ever consider correcting the coach who yells this to his team?

That's coaching, not umpiring. I would only correct the number of outs if I were asked by a coach or a player.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Would you ever consider correcting the coach who yells this to his team?

I would absolutely do this. It's not coaching, it's preventative umpiring. The defense aren't the only ones who can hear this. The runners can hear it, too.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I would absolutely do this. It's not coaching, it's preventative umpiring. The defense aren't the only ones who can hear this. The runners can hear it, too.

And THEY have their own coaches who just might be aware of how many outs there really are - it is their job. By your coaching, you have prevented the offense from possibly taking advantage of the defnse's mistake. Call this a mental error by the defense - you have zero business correcting the defense.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I would absolutely do this. It's not coaching, it's preventative umpiring. The defense aren't the only ones who can hear this. The runners can hear it, too.

Yes. It is coaching.

[wadeintothem]

This is a new one for me..

I gotta admit, I've never heard umpires claim giving the count or outs is coaching.

Now today, with 2 outs, I heard a coach say "get the lead runner". I didnt say anything, give the outs, or do anything outside my routine.

Now if I had said "look moron, there are 2 outs", that would have been coaching.

Simply giving outs or count is not coaching.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Now if I had said "look moron, there are 2 outs", that would have been coaching.

But, if you correct a coach who has made an announcement to his that is incorrect, as was being discussed, that is what you are saying in some form or fashion, and subsequently it is coaching.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

But, if you correct a coach who has made an announcement to his that is incorrect, as was being discussed, that is what you are saying in some form or fashion, and subsequently it is coaching.

I'd kind of agree with you as to how it is done. If you overtly correct a coach, it could be coaching. If you independently announce it, then that is what it is.

What you dont want to happen is partners to click an out thinking the coach is right, score keepers get confused and everything else. You are not the holder of the big secret as to how many outs there are. It is not soccer where only you know the time. If there was a score board, that would be one thing.. if you are holding out on information for fear its coaching.. its not. You are preventing an issue and making sure everyone is on the same page.

You dont need to address the coach, make your call.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

This is a new one for me..

I gotta admit, I've never heard umpires claim giving the count or outs is coaching.

Now today, with 2 outs, I heard a coach say "get the lead runner". I didnt say anything, give the outs, or do anything outside my routine.

Now if I had said "look moron, there are 2 outs", that would have been coaching.

Simply giving outs or count is not coaching.

After a new pitcher has finished her warm ups, I've seen umpires go to the circle and announce the game situation. It can go something like this: Pitcher, you have the bases loaded with 2 outs.

IMO that's coaching. If her coach feels it's important for F1 to know the game situation, let the coach explain it to her. If there's a count on the batter, I will give the count before putting the ball in play. If asked by a player or coach I will give the number of outs in this situation.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000

After a new pitcher has finished her warm ups, I've seen umpires go to the circle and announce the game situation. It can go something like this: Pitcher, you have the bases loaded with 2 outs.

IMO that's coaching. If her coach feels it's important for F1 to know the game situation, let the coach explain it to her. If there's a count on the batter, I will give the count before putting the ball in play. If asked by a player or coach I will give the number of outs in this situation.

Yup, I've seen that too. I agree - that's coaching.
I'll always give the count a delay and will always respond when asked the number of outs.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000

After a new pitcher has finished her warm ups, I've seen umpires go to the circle and announce the game situation. It can go something like this: Pitcher, you have the bases loaded with 2 outs.

IMO that's coaching. If her coach feels it's important for F1 to know the game situation, let the coach explain it to her. If there's a count on the batter, I will give the count before putting the ball in play. If asked by a player or coach I will give the number of outs in this situation.

Yeah thats horrible. I dont know that thats coaching, I consider it "dancing bear umpire".

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000

If asked by a player or coach I will give the number of outs in this situation.

For the record, the only time I verbalize outs during a game is when I am asked.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I would absolutely do this. It's not coaching, it's preventative umpiring. The defense aren't the only ones who can hear this. The runners can hear it, too.

Respectfully, I must disagree. Both teams have the responsibility to know the situation. I will not give out the outs unless I am asked, then I will give the information for all to hear.

Different wrinkle on the issue: in a situation where there is a scoreboard showing the number of outs, I will take time to try to correct the board or announce the number of outs when the scoreborad is incorrect. My reasoning is that the people running the scoreboard are to some extent an extention of the officiating crew, so really I am cleaning up my own mess. What say you, oh sage blues of the board?

But most of the time I am working of fields without such swank as scoreboards. I do, as a matter of routine, in my usual "patter" behind the plate, say things to the batter and catcher as we set up for the first time during an at bat, "OK, here we go, two down". After that they are on their own.

Going back to the original post, if both teams leave the field, then neither team knew the correct number of outs, so the defense should not gain from this by being awarded a 3rd out, right? I guess a strict interp of the rules quoted by On the other hand, if it was a planned play to catch the offense asleep, you would know it becuase the moment the runnner entered the dugout the opposing team would be very vocal about bringing it to your attention; excited that their trap had worked.

Ernie
ASA/NFHS Anchorage, Alaska

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

My reasoning is that the people running the scoreboard are to some extent an extention of the officiating crew, so really I am cleaning up my own mess. What say you, oh sage blues of the board?

They will say that this, in so many words, is in the ASA umpire manual.

But most of the time I am working of fields without such swank as scoreboards. I do, as a matter of routine, in my usual "patter" behind the plate, say things to the batter and catcher as we set up for the first time during an at bat, "OK, here we go, two down". After that they are on their own.

me too..