What are your thoughts.....

[drh898]

I had a play at the plate in a tournament the other day. I'm the PU, bases are loaded, 2 out. Ball is hit back to pitcher, runner on 3rd is coming home. Pitcher is slow to react, runner slides feet first PAST home plate, missing it and then slaps her hand on it as she is at shoulder level with the plate. By the time she slaps the plate the ball has beaten her to the catcher who is standing on the plate. I call her out. Coach goes ballistic and do the parents seated behind me.

My partner comes over to me between innings and tells me that was a stupid call, that I should have called her safe and I would have not had an arguement from anyone as the only person who saw that she slide past the plate without touching it was me and maybe some guy behind the fence who was lined up with the 3rd base line. He then proceeds to tell me that calls should be made taking into account what the he thinks everyone else is seeing, in other words, don't make the tough calls that can be seen as controversial. I've talked with other umps about this and, to my surprise, this is quite common.

I don't go out of my way to look for trouble but I do call what I see. Tell me what you think about this.

[CecilOne]

Maybe quite common, but disgusting and dishonest.
Does your partner place the outcome of the play or game above his/her own integrity?

Congrats on being right.

Personally, I can't call anything editorially, just what I see (even when I'm wrong).

[bigsig]

I think it was a great call and your partners advice is BS. On those close calls the key is to really sell it! Big wave and loud verbal "NO, MISSED THE PLATE, out!"
Keep calling them like you see them!

[greymule]

First, you should make the call by what you see, not by some notion of "what everybody else is seeing."

That said, the play you describe is something of a HTBT. If the runner obviously beat the throw but slid completely past the plate without touching it, then you are now actually dealing with a missed-base situation, which requires an appeal the same as if a runner beat the throw to 1B but missed the bag. In ASA, before the runner returns to touch the plate, F2 can step on home and appeal to you, or (more likely) tag the runner. But if the runner had actually slid past home plate before the ball arrived, the call is safe, even if she missed it, until there's an appeal.

On the other hand, if everything happened practically simultaneously—the runner is reaching for the plate while sliding past the bag (e.g., "shoulder level with the plate), then I'd call the out. And what the fans might think is irrelevant. Incidentally, even if you were concerned with what the fans think they saw, it should have been obvious to everyone that the slap of the plate was an indication of an original miss. An experienced umpire might sell the call by announcing, "Out! Before the hand got in."

[Note: the immediate appeal by stepping on the plate with the runner still in the vicinity is possible in ASA but not some other codes. I don't know how Fed treats that play, for example.]

[bkbjones]

It is something of a HTBT, but I'd call her safe because it is an appeal play.

Some of you already know this, but I also subscribe to the survivability factor. Now that doesn't mean she doesn't have to touch the plate...and I won't call the "neighborhood" play at any base (particularly second), but survivability is, IMHO, important, including in the play as described. However, survivability is NOT aimed toward appeasing the fans in the stands or even the coaches in the dugout.

In the play described there was no appeal by the catcher, and the runner retouched before any appeal was made. Based on the info at hand, I'd rule safe...and have no qualms nor any problems with my conscience. (Well, not any more than usual. )

[Tex]

I was wondering as to why the runner missed home plate initially. Was there possible obstruction with the catcher standing on home plate?

[Andy]

The philosophy your partner was talking about is "making the expected call".

Another example: On a tag play at any base, the throw is there well before the runner, but the fielder misses the tag attempt on the sliding runner. You (umpire) may be the only person that sees the missed tag attempt, but you call the out anyway because that is the "expected call" since the ball got there in plenty of time.

IMHO, this is chickensh*t umpiring! If you aren't prepared to make the correct call as you see it and deal with the repercussions of that call, you are in the wrong avocation.


Now, at the risk of hijacking the post - I have a question for those of you that are considering the OP an appeal play:

What are you defining as "past the base"?

In the OP, as I envision it, the runner has slid feet first and missed the plate with her feet. As her slide continues, she reaches to touch the plate with her hand. Part of her body has passed the plate, but part has not. My thinking would be that she has not passed the base until her entire body has passed the base. Only then would an appeal come into play.

Also - to rule on this play as an appeal, I would need some indication from the defense that they know the runner missed the plate and are not just trying for the routine force out.

[tmielke]

She never made it past the plate. She is out unless she missed the plate on purpose due to obstruction. Also the slide as described is common although it wouldn't normally be used in a force out situation.

From what you described in your original post, I say: GOOD CALL! If coach has a problem, tell him the truth: runner never touched the plate, and when she went back to touch, the throw beat her. If the coach still has a problem, maybe time to give him the heave-ho. You should also have reported your partner for being an a** about it later. If my partner came up to me, I would have asked if he saw any of it CLEARLY.

[Steve M]

Base on your description, I've still got 2 outs and the bases loaded - with a run scored. Some part of the runner went past the plate, to me, that qualifies as past the base. The defense did not make an appeal on the missed base, so there is no other choice but safe.
I do not see a "definition" of what constitutes passing a base, that's why I'm very comfortable with any part of the runner being past the plate meeting the requirements of "passing a base".

Now, I don't think your partner did you any good. Those discussions should always take place alone, away from the field - in a post game meeting. When they happen during a game, not much that 's good is likely to happen - somebody else may overhear, you may think about your partner's words and be distracted from what happens next, ...

[NCASAUmp]

I'll admit that initially, my instinct is to call the runner out. However, I looked into this further, and it looks like you're right... and wrong.

Look into Rule 8-7-I. John's right, it is an appeal play. However, Andy is right: your partner subscribes to the chickensh*t umpiring system. Never, EVER base your calls on popularity. On bam-bam plays, either way you call, you're probably going to p1ss off about 50% of the people watching the game anyway. So make the right call according to the rules and what you judge. The rulebook will be your saving grace.

Ahhhh.... 15 years into this profession, and I still have much to learn!

[IRISHMAFIA]

If the slide was wide with, in your judgment, full intent of tagging the plate with the hand, DMR, I believe this is an out.

And please do not tell me you cannot read the runner's mind. As an umpire, you are accepting pay to observe, judge and rule.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If the slide was wide with, in your judgment, full intent of tagging the plate with the hand, DMR, I believe this is an out.

And please do not tell me you cannot read the runner's mind. As an umpire, you are accepting pay to observe, judge and rule.

If this is what you saw, I agree. But, I don't see a runner using this kind of slide except when there is a tag play. Since it's not a tag play, I see the runner as just having missed the plate - so I need an appeal.

[BretMan]

My instinct is to call the out on the force play.

I'm basing this on my reading of the description that, to me, sounds like the runner made a poor slide and touched the plate (too late) on her initial effort, before completely passing it (ie: this never reached the point of becoming a missed base appeal play).

I suppose this might hinge on a definition of what constitutes the runner being "past" the base. Absent a definition, I would offer the analogy of how a runner is defined as being "past" another runner on the basepaths.

From R/S #39: "To pass a runner, the trail runner must pass the entire body of the lead runner, not just an arm or leg ahead of the trail runner."

Derived from that definition of "to pass": To pass a base, the runner's entire body must pass the base, not just an arm or leg ahead of the base.

[wadeintothem]

I've had the same play with the same coach going ballistic more than a few times.. and it pretty much sucks when only a few could be in position to see it.. but thats why you are there.

You made the right call.

Your partner is full of it.

And pay no mind the the appeal thing, its really stretching it to try to make this an appeal play as described. On any type of wide slide, hook slide etc, its when they touch the bag.. not pass the plate/base.