Illegal Pitch

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

BTW, if I were your partner, I'd back you to the coach and disagree with you privately. If I were the coach, you might have to dump me - especially if that call cost me something.

Larry,
I appreciate this - and would do the same.
And I think we'd have a ball on the field and then after.

[Mountaineer]

Just got off the phone with a member of the NFHS rules committee and he agrees with me. If you call an IP before you have a pitch (by rule) and she steps off - you have nothing. If a girl toes the rubber with her hands together, do you call that immediately too? While I can certainly see the validity of calling it the minute her hands come together, I also see more confrontation. Once the hands separate, she's committed to the pitch and there's nothing to argue about. My contact also agrees that if I call an IP when her hands come together and she steps back off the rubber - I have nothing and the IP is nullified.

Here's my question though - when you do this, are coming out and killing the play? "Dead ball, I have an IP for applying foreign substance!" That's the only way I could see that working.

[Dakota]

NFHS Case Book

6.2.2 SITUATION B:
After walking B1, F1 walks out of the 16-foot circle and licks the fingers on the throwing hand. With the ball in the glove, she walks on to the pitcher's plate and begins her delivery. RULING: Any time F1 licks the fingers on her pitching hand, she shall wipe them before touching the ball, otherwise an illegal pitch shall be called. The umpire shall declare the ball dead immediately.

Because this case play has the pitcher begin the delivery it does not completely resolve the discussion, but I think the statement of the ruling is pretty clear - dead ball immediately upon committing the infraction (touching the ball without wiping).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Just got off the phone with a member of the NFHS rules committee and he agrees with me. If you call an IP before you have a pitch (by rule) and she steps off - you have nothing. If a girl toes the rubber with her hands together, do you call that immediately too? While I can certainly see the validity of calling it the minute her hands come together, I also see more confrontation. Once the hands separate, she's committed to the pitch and there's nothing to argue about. My contact also agrees that if I call an IP when her hands come together and she steps back off the rubber - I have nothing and the IP is nullified.

Here's my question though - when you do this, are coming out and killing the play? "Dead ball, I have an IP for applying foreign substance!" That's the only way I could see that working.

Larry,

Is the rule for applying a foreign substance to the ball or pitching a ball to which a player applied a foreign substance?

If the former (as the ASA rule reads), then there is no pitch required as the violation is the application of the foreign substance, not the pitching of the ball.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Larry,

Is the rule for applying a foreign substance to the ball or pitching a ball to which a player applied a foreign substance?

If the former (as the ASA rule reads), then there is no pitch required as the violation is the application of the foreign substance, not the pitching of the ball.

And that makes sense to me . . . for some stupid reason, I kept seeing a DDB on the IP and that's where I said it wouldn't work. Immediate DB does now make sense to me. I just had this picture in my mind that I couldn't get out - no matter what anyone said.

[NDblue]

I guess I personally don't feel that chalk or dirt is a foreign substance. As soon as a ball touches the ground whether by pitch or hit, it's going to have dirt and/or chalk on it. Are you changing to a new ball after every pitch? Most players will have dirt/chalk in their gloves by just using them and that's going to get on the ball as well. If a pitcher puts some dirt/chalk on his/her hand, I'm not too concerned about it. Heck, I've had pitchers almost bury the ball in dirt before they pitched it. Playing in wet conditions, the ball gets wet, the pitcher dries it off with some infield dirt, I'm not saying anything. It's not giving them any advantage that I can see.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

If you call an IP before you have a pitch (by rule) and she steps off - you have nothing. If a girl toes the rubber with her hands together, do you call that immediately too?

If F1 toes the pitchers plate with her hands together, she can step off and correct herself. When she applies a foreign substance to the ball, that act alone is what is illegal.

Originally Posted by NDBlue

I guess I personally don't feel that chalk or dirt is a foreign substance. As soon as a ball touches the ground whether by pitch or hit, it's going to have dirt and/or chalk on it.

The ball can come in contact with dirt/chalk through normal play. INTENTIONALLY contacting the ball with dirt/chalk/moisture/or any substance that is foreign to the ball is what is illegal.

[NDblue]

So, slapping the ball towards the ground is illegal? Isn't that INTENTIONALLY contacting the ball with dirt/chalk? IMO, anything that is part of the field is fair play and I'm not the only one that thinks this. Chalk is part of the field as is the dirt. A resin bag is not. Now, if a player walks over to where the guy is chalking the field and grabs a handfull of chalk out of his chalker, that is crossing the line.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NDblue

So, slapping the ball towards the ground is illegal? Isn't that INTENTIONALLY contacting the ball with dirt/chalk?...

So what? The rule is that the player may not "use" a foreign substance on the ball or on the contact points of the hand, and may not "apply" a foreign substance to the ball (ref: NFHS 6-2-2). It says nothing about keeping the ball from contact with the playing surface during normal play. I don't know why you cannot see the distinction.

Originally Posted by NDblue

....If a pitcher puts some dirt/chalk on his/her hand
...Heck, I've had pitchers almost bury the ball in dirt before they pitched it.
...the ball gets wet, the pitcher dries it off with some infield dirt,
...

All of those violate the rule. I'll grant you that most of the time in girls fastpitch, when a foreign substance is applied to the ball it is not to affect the flight of the ball in the classic spit-ball sense, but rather to improve the pitcher's grip. Nonetheless, if done improperly, it is a violation.

[NDblue]

I'm arguing what a "foreign substance" is. Is there dirt on the field of play? Is there chalk on the field of play? How are these "foreign" substances? They're part of the field and not foreign. Is there a definition of what a foreign substance is according to the ASA book? Tell me where to look as I can't find it, I have the 2006 and 2007 books right here. Rule 6, section 6.A talks about resin and saliva, says nothing about dirt/chalk.

I don't see how dirt can help a pitchers grip. I can see the opposite.

[BretMan]

Upon what assumption do you base your interpretation that the rule refers to substances foreign to the playing field and grounds rather than substances foreign to the ball?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NDblue

I'm arguing what a "foreign substance" is. Is there dirt on the field of play? Is there chalk on the field of play? How are these "foreign" substances? They're part of the field and not foreign. Is there a definition of what a foreign substance is according to the ASA book? Tell me where to look as I can't find it, I have the 2006 and 2007 books right here. Rule 6, section 6.A talks about resin and saliva, says nothing about dirt/chalk.

I don't see how dirt can help a pitchers grip. I can see the opposite.

...

Try case play 6.6-4.