Illegal Pitch

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Scott,
The first one, I agree, that is not an IP.
I do not agree with you on the 2nd pitch, that was an IP, immediately. It was illegal because F1 did not wipe her pitching hand before touching the ball. That's applying a foreign object. I know you called IP, but that was much later. I'm calling IP as soon as the unwiped pitching hand touches the ball - the actual, physical pitch is not going to happen.
Now, what is a foreign substance - if it was not on the ball when it came out of the box, that's a foreign substance. And RESIN, applied directly to the ball - as opposed to being applied to the hand & then wiped - is also applying a foreign subsance.
And, when wiping, I am not looking at the hand to make sure F1 got every bit of the chalk/resin/whatever off of the hand. The fact is, the stuff went onto the hand and the hand was then wiped. That's good enough for me to believe that the book requirements have been met.

I disagree with you on this one Steve. We actually have this arguement in our local board all the time. If you call the IP as soon as the hand touches the ball - she can simply step off the back of the pitcher's plate and you have nothing. By definition, the pitch begins when the hands are separated after they have been brought together (or something like that - don't have my book with me). IMO, when she takes the hands apart - that's when the IP is to be called. It became illegal when the hand touched the ball - it became a pitch when the hands separated.

I should add that I'm looking at this from fed rules . . . not sure if ASA treats it differently.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

I disagree with you on this one Steve. We actually have this arguement in our local board all the time. If you call the IP as soon as the hand touches the ball - she can simply step off the back of the pitcher's plate and you have nothing. By definition, the pitch begins when the hands are separated after they have been brought together (or something like that - don't have my book with me). IMO, when she takes the hands apart - that's when the IP is to be called. It became illegal when the hand touched the ball - it became a pitch when the hands separated.

I should add that I'm looking at this from fed rules . . . not sure if ASA treats it differently.

Larry,
We'd be on opposite sides guy. The IP is the penalty - in both Fed and ASA - for going directly to the ball after applying the foreign substance. I don't need the actual pitch to occur.
For Fed, check Rule 6, Penalty for Article 2&3 - it sez immediate
For ASA, I'm going to trust memory and say it's Rule 6, Section 5.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Larry,
We'd be on opposite sides guy. The IP is the penalty - in both Fed and ASA - for going directly to the ball after applying the foreign substance. I don't need the actual pitch to occur.
For Fed, check Rule 6, Penalty for Article 2&3 - it sez immediate
For ASA, I'm going to trust memory and say it's Rule 6, Section 5.

You are correct - we are on opposite sides. Until the hands are taken apart, 6.1.f says that the pitcher can remove herself from the pitching position. If you call an IP before it's a pitch - i.e. when the ball touches the hand, she steps back off the plate and you look foolish. My hope is that once she starts her windup or removes one hand that I call the IP and it causes her not to finish the pitch. At any rate, I still don't see how you can call an IP before you have a pitch.

I did check the reference you stated (albeit a 2005 book) and it doesn't have the word immediate. I agree that an IP is the penalty for applying an illegal substance to the ball - but till she commits to the pitch you have nothing.

BTW, if I were your partner, I'd back you to the coach and disagree with you privately. If I were the coach, you might have to dump me - especially if that call cost me something.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Larry, then you are dumped. It is an illegal pitch for any player to apply a foreign substance, even if the ball is never pitched.

Picture this. Foul ball to third baseman; he fields it, and applies stickum to the ball before returning the ball to the pitcher. What is your call?

My call is illegal pitch; now. The ball is thrown out of play, and the third baseman is warned that repeating that act will result in an ejection.

Play 2; same, but third baseman rubs the ball in the dirt to "rough it up". My call, same result.

Now , play 3, pitcher applies dirt/resin/chalk, whatever. Illegal pitch; now. No pitch is required for that ruling. If the ball is defaced, it is unsafe to be used. Allowing or requirig it to be used isn't prudent or appropriate.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

BTW, if I were your partner, I'd back you to the coach and disagree with you privately. If I were the coach, you might have to dump me - especially if that call cost me something.

Larry,
I appreciate this - and would do the same.
And I think we'd have a ball on the field and then after.

[Mountaineer]

Just got off the phone with a member of the NFHS rules committee and he agrees with me. If you call an IP before you have a pitch (by rule) and she steps off - you have nothing. If a girl toes the rubber with her hands together, do you call that immediately too? While I can certainly see the validity of calling it the minute her hands come together, I also see more confrontation. Once the hands separate, she's committed to the pitch and there's nothing to argue about. My contact also agrees that if I call an IP when her hands come together and she steps back off the rubber - I have nothing and the IP is nullified.

Here's my question though - when you do this, are coming out and killing the play? "Dead ball, I have an IP for applying foreign substance!" That's the only way I could see that working.

[Dakota]

NFHS Case Book

6.2.2 SITUATION B:
After walking B1, F1 walks out of the 16-foot circle and licks the fingers on the throwing hand. With the ball in the glove, she walks on to the pitcher's plate and begins her delivery. RULING: Any time F1 licks the fingers on her pitching hand, she shall wipe them before touching the ball, otherwise an illegal pitch shall be called. The umpire shall declare the ball dead immediately.

Because this case play has the pitcher begin the delivery it does not completely resolve the discussion, but I think the statement of the ruling is pretty clear - dead ball immediately upon committing the infraction (touching the ball without wiping).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Just got off the phone with a member of the NFHS rules committee and he agrees with me. If you call an IP before you have a pitch (by rule) and she steps off - you have nothing. If a girl toes the rubber with her hands together, do you call that immediately too? While I can certainly see the validity of calling it the minute her hands come together, I also see more confrontation. Once the hands separate, she's committed to the pitch and there's nothing to argue about. My contact also agrees that if I call an IP when her hands come together and she steps back off the rubber - I have nothing and the IP is nullified.

Here's my question though - when you do this, are coming out and killing the play? "Dead ball, I have an IP for applying foreign substance!" That's the only way I could see that working.

Larry,

Is the rule for applying a foreign substance to the ball or pitching a ball to which a player applied a foreign substance?

If the former (as the ASA rule reads), then there is no pitch required as the violation is the application of the foreign substance, not the pitching of the ball.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Larry,

Is the rule for applying a foreign substance to the ball or pitching a ball to which a player applied a foreign substance?

If the former (as the ASA rule reads), then there is no pitch required as the violation is the application of the foreign substance, not the pitching of the ball.

And that makes sense to me . . . for some stupid reason, I kept seeing a DDB on the IP and that's where I said it wouldn't work. Immediate DB does now make sense to me. I just had this picture in my mind that I couldn't get out - no matter what anyone said.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

If you call an IP before you have a pitch (by rule) and she steps off - you have nothing. If a girl toes the rubber with her hands together, do you call that immediately too?

If F1 toes the pitchers plate with her hands together, she can step off and correct herself. When she applies a foreign substance to the ball, that act alone is what is illegal.

Originally Posted by NDBlue

I guess I personally don't feel that chalk or dirt is a foreign substance. As soon as a ball touches the ground whether by pitch or hit, it's going to have dirt and/or chalk on it.

The ball can come in contact with dirt/chalk through normal play. INTENTIONALLY contacting the ball with dirt/chalk/moisture/or any substance that is foreign to the ball is what is illegal.

[NDblue]

So, slapping the ball towards the ground is illegal? Isn't that INTENTIONALLY contacting the ball with dirt/chalk? IMO, anything that is part of the field is fair play and I'm not the only one that thinks this. Chalk is part of the field as is the dirt. A resin bag is not. Now, if a player walks over to where the guy is chalking the field and grabs a handfull of chalk out of his chalker, that is crossing the line.

[JEL]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

I disagree with you on this one Steve. We actually have this arguement in our local board all the time. If you call the IP as soon as the hand touches the ball - she can simply step off the back of the pitcher's plate and you have nothing. By definition, the pitch begins when the hands are separated after they have been brought together (or something like that - don't have my book with me). IMO, when she takes the hands apart - that's when the IP is to be called. It became illegal when the hand touched the ball - it became a pitch when the hands separated.

I should add that I'm looking at this from fed rules . . . not sure if ASA treats it differently.

Looking from FED rules, it is 6-2-2 and the penalty states "An illegal pitch shall be called immediately"

In reading the EXCEPTION we are told that if the pitch is completed the coach (may) have the option, and signal with the left arm and so on. Then the NOTE: again states to call it when it becomes illegal.

If we say that "she can simply step off the back of the pitcher's plate and you have nothing" then what is to stop the F5 from applying vaseline (an illegal act per rule 6-2-2) then returning the ball to the pitcher? Or are you arguing that she may step off, remove the foriegn substance (be it vaseline or chalk, or spit) and then throw with still no penalty? These rules are listed under the title "INFRACTIONS BY PITCHER". If there is an infraction, how can there be no penalty?

Mountaineer I really think you need to re-consider somewhat.

[Skahtboi]

Larry...

Don't want to beat up on you, but the Steves are correct. For this type of infraction, the IP needs to be called when it occurs. This is according to ASA, NFHS, and the OP's USSSA. Stepping back and abandoning the pitch does not nullify the infraction.