FLEX batting

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

It can't. Which is what he said. It's not. It's illegal sub. Again - which is what he said.

I know it is not, but this was the statement to which I was referring:

It is not considered a sub for the DP, but batting out of order.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I know it is not, but this was the statement to which I was referring:

It is not considered a sub for the DP, but batting out of order.

I seem to be having problems communicating in this thread...

I meant, "It is NOT considered a sub for the DP who is batting out of order. It is instead considered an illegal sub for the #1 batter who is batting in the correct order."

[cpa]

Let's follow this thru to the absurb

After the #9 batter bats, the FLEX comes up and bats and completes her turn at bat as an illegal offensive sub for #1.

At that point, I've got #1 out of the game and she must re-enter.

Now, #1 sees they're starting at the top of the lineup and comes up to bat following the last name of the lineup in the dugout (#10) -- Do I now have #1 re-entering as a batter in the #2 slot following the FLEX (who is the illegal sub) in the #1 spot in the batting order?

Suppose they get all the way back thru the lineup down to the bottom -- do I now have the entire team re-entered as illegal subs because of the FLEX inserting themselves in the batting order?

Lot of restricted folks in that dugout, if that's the case

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I seem to be having problems communicating in this thread...

I meant, "It is NOT considered a sub for the DP who is batting out of order. It is instead considered an illegal sub for the #1 batter who is batting in the correct order."

I understood you. But I see how that statement was misunderstood as well.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by cpa

Let's follow this thru to the absurb

After the #9 batter bats, the FLEX comes up and bats and completes her turn at bat as an illegal offensive sub for #1.

At that point, I've got #1 out of the game and she must re-enter.

Now, #1 sees they're starting at the top of the lineup and comes up to bat following the last name of the lineup in the dugout (#10) -- Do I now have #1 re-entering as a batter in the #2 slot following the FLEX (who is the illegal sub) in the #1 spot in the batting order?

Suppose they get all the way back thru the lineup down to the bottom -- do I now have the entire team re-entered as illegal subs because of the FLEX inserting themselves in the batting order?

No ... you only have one illegal sub - the FLEX. After that, once B2 took a pitch, she legitimized the BOO on B1 and becomes the correct batter ... and the rest of the batters are all batting in order. B1 has used her reentry at this point.

[rwest]

We've been going back and forth. I'd like to summarize so I know how to rule on this if it should ever happen. It seems to me that the two broad categories we are discussing is as follows:

1. Flex bats in the 10th spot with the #1 spot being the DP.
2. Flex bats in the 10th spot with the DP being in some other spot other than #1.

With that in mind here are the scenarios:

1. Flex Bats in 10th spot with #1 spot being the DP. If discovered while at bat, can't we say she is an unreported substitute, assuming she is batting for the DP? Then if that's the case we simply put her in the game. The team has now gone down to 9 and we give a team warning.

2. Flex Bats in 10th spot with DP being #1 spot. Flex makes it safely on base. DP now comes up to bat. What do we have? BOO? What do we do with Flex? Is she still an unreported substitute?

3. Flex Bats in 10th spot with #1 spot NOT the DP. If discovered while at bat, what do we have? Illegal Sub? BOO?


4. Flex Bats in 10th spot with #1 spot not the DP. Flex makes it safely on base. Lead-off batter now comes up to bat. What do we have? BOO? What do we do with Flex? Is she still an unreported substitute?

[Dakota]

A couple of key points / general principles:

1) Players who are not IN the batting order cannot bat out of order
2) When a player not in the batting order steps up to bat, she is entering the batting order FOR someone. There is no #10 spot (speaking NFHS fast pitch)
3) The rule book makes it very clear that the FLEX player entering the batting order for anyone other than the DP is an illegal player.
4) Considering all of the above, and especially #3, the FLEX player can never bat out of order.

Using these, proceed step by step in your situations.

Originally Posted by rwest

1. Flex Bats in 10th spot with #1 spot being the DP. If discovered while at bat, can't we say she is an unreported substitute, assuming she is batting for the DP? Then if that's the case we simply put her in the game. The team has now gone down to 9 and we give a team warning.

Correct.

Originally Posted by rwest

2. Flex Bats in 10th spot with DP being #1 spot. Flex makes it safely on base. DP now comes up to bat. What do we have? BOO? What do we do with Flex? Is she still an unreported substitute?

See #1 above. Is the player who started the game as DP in the batting order at this point? No. FLEX was an unreported substitute. Team warning. DP is not in the game. DP has also re-entered the game (3-3-3d). She must be entering FOR someone since she was no longer in the batting order. Hence, she is an illegal subsitute, is declared out, is restricted to the bench, and B1 missed her turn at bat. B2 due up. Double wammy.

Originally Posted by rwest

3. Flex Bats in 10th spot with #1 spot NOT the DP. If discovered while at bat, what do we have? Illegal Sub? BOO?

Since this is specifically covered in the rules (3-3-6g) AND in my general principles, I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader.

Originally Posted by rwest

4. Flex Bats in 10th spot with #1 spot not the DP. Flex makes it safely on base. Lead-off batter now comes up to bat. What do we have? BOO? What do we do with Flex? Is she still an unreported substitute?

See my response to #2 as a guide and go through it step by step. What is the FLEX player at this point? When was she discovered? What is the penalty for her? Has B1 entered the game officially? What is her status? What are the consequences of this?

[rwest]

If the DP is not the #1 spot and the flex bats in the 10th spot, she's an illegal sub. But who is she batting for? Do we always assume she is batting for the #1 spot? And if so, if the #1 batter also comes to bat, do we have another illegal sub since the #1 batter has been sub'd for and can't be in the game at the same time as her sub. So then do we get two outs?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by rwest

If the DP is not the #1 spot and the flex bats in the 10th spot, she's an illegal sub. But who is she batting for? Do we always assume she is batting for the #1 spot? And if so, if the #1 batter also comes to bat, do we have another illegal sub since the #1 batter has been sub'd for and can't be in the game at the same time as her sub. So then do we get two outs?

This, like my response to your #2 situation above, may get into "official interpretation" territory where the NFHS may choose to limit the damage.... but I haven't been able to find anything. Which leaves us with the rules and case plays they do have.

Let's assume FLEX bats as "#10" in the order, so the offense is playing a batting order of 1, 2,...10, 1, 2, ... and no one, so far, has obected to this.

FLEX bats and reaches base. #1 enters the batter's box. By rule, FLEX was an illegal player and once that rule is enforced, #1 is out of the game and #1's time at bat is lost. So, #1 has no business being in the batter's box. By rule, #1 is now entering the game. Hence, #1 is also an illegal sub (illegal re-entry), and is out, and #2 has left the game and lost her time at bat.

Upon reflecting on this (and my answer to your #2, above), I'm not sure this literal interpretation is correctly applying the rules. After all, when #1 entered the batter's box, the illegal player rule had NOT been enforced against FLEX.

Anyone want to comment?