Umpire for 42 years...

[Agreen_14]

Last night I was picked up to play a game in a church league. They put me at catcher so I'm talking to the blue the whole game. The games going smooth for the first 5 innings, no problems. Then it just seemed to fall apart for the umpire. Again this is a church league so no one is really getting mad at the blue but he starts making really bad calls. The first one was a play at home with me as catcher. R1 rounds third and heads home on a wild throw to 1st. Ball gets to me before the runner slides, I'm standing in front of the plate. I catch the ball, quickly turn and put the tag on the runners leg before he touches home. The ump calls him safe. No biggie, tie game. The ump was standing about 5-6 ft. in front of home plate inside the diamond. Was he in proper position? He couldn't see the tag because I had to turn my back to him...

Next play R1 on 1st B3 hits a grounder to F4, F4 turns and tosses to F6 who tags the base but R1 slides and takes out F6. I'm not sure if it was intentional but it looked unfair to me. There was an oppurtunity for a double play had F6 not been hindered. The ump calls an out at R1 out on a force all play stands... I turn and ask the blue, "You didn't think SS was hindered and therefore couldn't make the throw" and he gives me this blank look... I say "He took out the SS" and the blue says "Well... He's allowed to take him out..." "...As long as he's sliding".

There were several other questionable calls as well... I explained to the ump that I'm trying to learn as much as possible before my debut as an umpire and I was just curious about some of the calls he made. He said "no worries, most of this stuff you won't see on the test or in the books" LOL! If I was a mean person I would've told him it looks like somebody needs to READ the rulebook.. I know I didn't give many details, but believe me, he missed some pretty key plays. He did say that he had umpired all different types of baseball/softball including Semi-Pro and womens college FP, I gave him respect for that.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Agreen_14

Next play R1 on 1st B3 hits a grounder to F4, F4 turns and tosses to F6 who tags the base but R1 slides and takes out F6. I'm not sure if it was intentional but it looked unfair to me. There was an oppurtunity for a double play had F6 not been hindered. The ump calls an out at R1 out on a force all play stands... I turn and ask the blue, "You didn't think SS was hindered and therefore couldn't make the throw" and he gives me this blank look... I say "He took out the SS" and the blue says "Well... He's allowed to take him out..." "...As long as he's sliding".

Check out this post regarding sliding. Personally, I think it's a horses*** play, as these are not pros playing - they're fathers and husbands who have jobs to go to in the morning to put food on the table. Unfortunately, it *can* be legal, though I'd HTBT in order to make that determination.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Agreen_14

Last night I was picked up to play a game in a church league. They put me at catcher so I'm talking to the blue the whole game. The games going smooth for the first 5 innings, no problems. Then it just seemed to fall apart for the umpire. Again this is a church league so no one is really getting mad at the blue but he starts making really bad calls. The first one was a play at home with me as catcher. R1 rounds third and heads home on a wild throw to 1st. Ball gets to me before the runner slides, I'm standing in front of the plate. I catch the ball, quickly turn and put the tag on the runners leg before he touches home. The ump calls him safe. No biggie, tie game. The ump was standing about 5-6 ft. in front of home plate inside the diamond. Was he in proper position? He couldn't see the tag because I had to turn my back to him...

Next play R1 on 1st B3 hits a grounder to F4, F4 turns and tosses to F6 who tags the base but R1 slides and takes out F6. I'm not sure if it was intentional but it looked unfair to me. There was an oppurtunity for a double play had F6 not been hindered. The ump calls an out at R1 out on a force all play stands... I turn and ask the blue, "You didn't think SS was hindered and therefore couldn't make the throw" and he gives me this blank look... I say "He took out the SS" and the blue says "Well... He's allowed to take him out..." "...As long as he's sliding".

There were several other questionable calls as well... I explained to the ump that I'm trying to learn as much as possible before my debut as an umpire and I was just curious about some of the calls he made. He said "no worries, most of this stuff you won't see on the test or in the books" LOL! If I was a mean person I would've told him it looks like somebody needs to READ the rulebook.. I know I didn't give many details, but believe me, he missed some pretty key plays. He did say that he had umpired all different types of baseball/softball including Semi-Pro and womens college FP, I gave him respect for that.

If these are your best two examples of the game "falling apart" and "really bad calls", then maybe things were not as bad as you think.

In the first play, that is not where I would set up for a play that was going to be at the plate all the way. But, whatever, if he was screened, his call was proper.

In the second play, a legal slide is always legal contact, even if it takes a defender out of a double play.

[Agreen_14]

Okay well maybe I didn't mean "falling apart". Let me just say the umpire didn't look to good after this part of the game IMO. His remarks to me didn't reflect anything that I've learned from reading the rule book front to back.... He was really old and tried to hustle, I'll give him that. But his hustle was more like a brisk walk. He'd take two steps around the left side of the catcher and call plays happening on 2nd base... This is a city league that is ASA sanctioned but might as well be hardball rules according to some of the things that I've not seen called regarding OBS and INT... I'm affraid that I'll be too technical and by-the-book.

[wadeintothem]

maybe you need to reread the rule book.

There is nothing in your post that indicates anything improper by the umpire, except perhaps allowing you to engage him over and over questioning calls.

You outright invented the "SS hindered" thing.

Sometimes, especially in slow pitch by yourself where there is a lot of action, you are not in ideal position for plays.

Thats my .02

[IRISHMAFIA]

Well, I'm only in my 41st year of umpiring, so I'm not quite as experienced as your buddy. Okay, he was out of position for the play at home, but if you had to turn your back to him to make a tag, so were you.

Sorry, but other then being inside the diamond when he shouldn't have been, I don't see anything wrong here.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Agreen_14

Okay well maybe I didn't mean "falling apart". Let me just say the umpire didn't look to good after this part of the game IMO. His remarks to me didn't reflect anything that I've learned from reading the rule book front to back.... He was really old and tried to hustle, I'll give him that. But his hustle was more like a brisk walk. He'd take two steps around the left side of the catcher and call plays happening on 2nd base....

For single umpire and calls at 2B, sprinting out into the infield is not much of an advantage; for one thing, you won't get very far before you'd better be coming set to see the play; for another the angle is much more important that the distance; third, for a swipe tag, you are always going to be completely or partially screened. I prefer going down the 1st base line rather than the 3rd or into the infield.

Originally Posted by Agreen_14

This is a city league that is ASA sanctioned but might as well be hardball rules according to some of the things that I've not seen called regarding OBS and INT... I'm affraid that I'll be too technical and by-the-book.

Also, with single man, and with more than the BR running, you are going to miss most of what is happening with the runners not involved in the play by the defense.

Over-officiating is one thing a new umpire needs to be cautious about, but not so cautious that you let things slide that should be called.

[NCASAUmp]

And every player that I've met who made the transition from player to umpire has always said the same thing: it's a whole different game once you put on the uniform. Calls that seem so clear to players present themselves differently to umpires. Players see chests relative to the bases. They see bodies. They see players.

We're watching feet, hands, the ball, gloves. We're listening for the sound of the ball hitting the glove relative to the thump of a foot on the bag. On a possible trap, we're listening for one noise coming from the outfield and not two (the thwack of the ball hitting the glove and not the *thud* *thwack* of a ball bouncing, then being caught). Sure, the throw beat the runner, but the first baseman's foot was slightly off the bag, or the runner extended their leg and hit the base first. Sure, the runner beat the throw on a sliding play at the plate, but their foot was up in the air, never touching home, and the catcher tagged them before their other leg hit the plate. It's almost like we're watching two different games.

I'm not saying that your umpire didn't make bad calls. I've made plenty, and I'm sure everyone else here has blown a call (or 50) over their lifetime. And I'll bet you my next season's paycheck that you'll blow a call, too, and someone will be writing about you on some forum or blog. That's the job.

However, the fact that you ask questions to other umpires about plays ("Is this correct?" "Why is this not INT?" "Why is this not OBS?" Etc.) shows that you'll take the job seriously, which is more than what I can say for some other guys. Keep asking questions. We'll be here.

Good luck to ya!

[Agreen_14]

Oh well, I guess its a HTBT situation. I felt the SS was hindered in making a throw to 1st. R1 slid kinda sideways in a manner to break up the play. I mean, sure it's softball, but that's uncalled for. I would've punished the runner and awarded a 2nd out... And no I wasn't questioning every single call, the umpire was very eager to talk to me. It was a man-to-man talk with respect. His answer is what kinda threw me off. "he's allowed to take him out." He said it really slow like he wasn't sure of the rule.

edit: thanks NcASA

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Agreen_14

...His answer is what kinda threw me off. "he's allowed to take him out." He said it really slow like he wasn't sure of the rule.

But, he is allowed, so long as the slide itself is legal. (toward the base, not cleats high... that sort of thing.)

[Agreen_14]

I'll try to explain the slide a little better... R1 took a wide angle to second and at the last second slid into the inside of the bag, cleats high but not too high and slid through the bag with his right knee up. R1 was clearly not going to make the base safely and did what he could to bust up the SS from making the throw... So I guess now after rethinking the whole situation it was partially intentional. It was definitely hardball legal, I'm not sure about Church Men's softball. He could've easily broke the SS's leg.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Agreen_14

I'll try to explain the slide a little better... R1 took a wide angle to second and at the last second slid into the inside of the bag, cleats high but not too high and slid through the bag with his right knee up. R1 was clearly not going to make the base safely and did what he could to bust up the SS from making the throw... So I guess now after rethinking the whole situation it was partially intentional. It was definitely hardball legal, I'm not sure about Church Men's softball. He could've easily broke the SS's leg.

Again, it's a horses*** play, but it could be legal, despite the fact that it's a church league.

[Agreen_14]

Oh yeah, the reason I was out of position to make the tag was because the overthrow to 1st hit off the fence and rolled toward the plate, the pitcher was coming in to back up a possible play at the plate. I started to go toward the ball and at the last second backpeddled to the front of the plate. It was a good play and the runner was tagged out before touching the plate... The ump was in the proper position to make the call at 1st. R1 on 2B moved all the way to 3rd by the time the ball was overthrown and he did not slow down rounding 3rd to come home. Where should the umpire have moved to get in the next proper position to make a call at home?

Trust me, this ump taught me a valuable lesson about hustling. Nothings worse than seeing an umpire trot around. I know the jobs tough and he was an ol' timer and all, but I will make sure that hustling is my top priority! I don't wear the number 14 for nothing.. Charlie Hustle baby!!!

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Agreen_14

I'll try to explain the slide a little better... R1 took a wide angle to second and at the last second slid into the inside of the bag, cleats high but not too high and slid through the bag with his right knee up. R1 was clearly not going to make the base safely and did what he could to bust up the SS from making the throw... So I guess now after rethinking the whole situation it was partially intentional. It was definitely hardball legal, I'm not sure about Church Men's softball. He could've easily broke the SS's leg.

Obviously HTBT, but here are a couple of things about a play like this...

1) Was the runner already retired before he reached the vacinity of the base? A runner is always allowed to put maximum effort to get to his base as quickly as possible, and to slide into that base. He is not required to go "poof" once he is retired, and he is not required to assume the defense will make the play even if it seems like he is a dead duck. However, if he was retired 15 feet from the bag, and he still tried a "take-out" slide, then you might have something.

2) ASA does not provide different base-running rules for the different levels of play (with the obvious exceptions of things like 10U B and no stealing in certain classes of slowpitch).

3) If the runner had remained on his feet and crashed into the defender, you would also have something, but as an umpire, you can't call the game based on what you think "should be fair" - you have to call it by the rules. And, a legal slide is ALWAYS legal contact.

[Agreen_14]

I got ya dakota. The play was closer than 15 feet. I'd say F6 caught the ball-tagged base-starts throw-runner slides. You see F6 also came off the bag going forward with his throw to 1st which put him in a bad situation, but, the runner, I do not think had to slide.