Umpire Baiting Coach - Delay of Game?

[Dukat]

In all my years of umpiring and coaching I have never had this happen so it caught me off guard but I want your opinions. I am both umpire and coach in our organization. I Coach 15U Girls SP and umpire when my team is not playing in the other age groups in SP and FP. Our league has a 60 minute time limit and 15 after 3 and 10 after 5. My team is very good and we have only taken a game to the time limit twice all year. With that said I do try to keep the score from getting too out of control and hold them to singles and what not when I can and also try and get these girls as much playing time as I can within the rules. In this particular situation I am up 15-1 in the bottom of the third, no outs and R1 on 3rd with almost 30 minutes left on the clock. The batter gets up and hits it to the outfield. I hold the runner on third and stop the batter at first. The PU screams at me from behind the plate I HAVE to run that runner at third home (No Force behind her). I told him that I will coach the team and he can umpire the game. He starts barreling down the baseline after me screaming so I turn my back and walk away telling him I will not be baited. He finally walks back into position. Once I got bases loaded and got a hit I ran the girl home. He is trying to use the delay of game tactic on me and I asked my UIC about it and he agrees with me that without the force and being a timed game that rule does not apply. All I was trying to do was give two more girls an at bat. If I was telling my girls to strike out to get to another inning or making a travesty of the game I could understand. By my interpretation of the rules I was OK. What say ye?

FYI: The next night he restricted a coach to the dugout for holding his girls to singles in a game he was up by over 20 runs using the same logic.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dukat

In all my years of umpiring and coaching I have never had this happen so it caught me off guard but I want your opinions. I am both umpire and coach in our organization. I Coach 15U Girls SP and umpire when my team is not playing in the other age groups in SP and FP. Our league has a 60 minute time limit and 15 after 3 and 10 after 5. My team is very good and we have only taken a game to the time limit twice all year. With that said I do try to keep the score from getting too out of control and hold them to singles and what not when I can and also try and get these girls as much playing time as I can within the rules. In this particular situation I am up 15-1 in the bottom of the third, no outs and R1 on 3rd with almost 30 minutes left on the clock. The batter gets up and hits it to the outfield. I hold the runner on third and stop the batter at first. The PU screams at me from behind the plate I HAVE to run that runner at third home (No Force behind her). I told him that I will coach the team and he can umpire the game. He starts barreling down the baseline after me screaming so I turn my back and walk away telling him I will not be baited. He finally walks back into position. Once I got bases loaded and got a hit I ran the girl home. He is trying to use the delay of game tactic on me and I asked my UIC about it and he agrees with me that without the force and being a timed game that rule does not apply. All I was trying to do was give two more girls an at bat. If I was telling my girls to strike out to get to another inning or making a travesty of the game I could understand. By my interpretation of the rules I was OK. What say ye?

FYI: The next night he restricted a coach to the dugout for holding his girls to singles in a game he was up by over 20 runs using the same logic.

Let's see, you are knowingly involved in a league which has tight time limits and they you try to beat those limits as a coach for a couple extra bats for two girls which will take the game past the time limit. And, from what you indicate here, you are not the only coach who does this. So, my question is why play in a league with such a short time allowed for games? Obviously, there is no parity among the teams.

My opinion: When the game is that lopsided, it needs to be allowed to end, not extended for a weak excuse like a couple extra at bats. Is that worth a player on either team suffering an injury during the extended period of time that probably shouldn't have been played?

Edited to clarify: I am not supporting the manner in which this "umpire" acted. No comment on the rules as this is obviously not ASA.

[Dakota]

Sounds like either this guy is very tightly wound, or he is used to Bubba league SP teams that try to keep the score 1 below the mercy rule just so they can keep playing. Or both.

With no outs, runners at the corners, and only needing one more run for the game to be over, he was way over the top. Now, if you were having every batter swing wildly to get to 3 outs without scoring that run, he may have a legitimate need to give a warning.

As to the next night, that game was already well past the mercy rule limit. This guy is stuck on this hastening rule thing.

BTW, what rule set are you using?

...he restricted a coach to the dugout

??

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...you try to beat those limits as a coach for a couple extra bats for two girls which will take the game past the time limit....

It would have not allowed the mercy rule to be invoked for 2 more batters. There was still 30 minutes left on the clock.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

It would have not allowed the mercy rule to be invoked for 2 more batters. There was still 30 minutes left on the clock.

You are correct, I missed it. I am guilty of a pet peeve of not reading everything as written. I missed a few things as everything sort of blended together.

But you know what, basically the same response. Is it worth the couple of extra at-bats and possibly another 5+ runs on the board? How is the other team going to feel about that?

I can appreciate the station-to-station running, but I'm just not a believer in a game being artificially extended.

[Andy]

I don't have the ASA book or the PDF here at work, but I believe the rule states that "using tactics to delay or hasten the game is illegal" The penalty is a forfeit of the game. The rule does not differentiate between legal tactics or illegal tactics, just tactics.

By your own admission, you are "using tactics to delay the game" by holding your runner at third on a base hit that could score a run to end the game.

That being said, the actions of the umpire as you describe them are inappropriate. 'Screaming" at you and "barrelling down the baseline" is not the best way to handle this situation. If the umpire feels some type of conversation is necessary, s/he could quietly mention to you that the penalty for delaying the game is a forfeit...hopefully you would get the message.

Speaking for myself only, were I the umpire in the situation described, I'm not saying or doing a thing..the game will finish soon enough. As Wade said in another thread, the legal use of the forfeit option is like a nuclear bomb...very powerful, but the potential for collateral damage is high. I will be very judicious in my use of that tool.

[LMan]

The umpire was clearly pizzed that he only needed 1 more run to end the game, and you were denying him that run (temporarily).

What you got against umpires? They have lives too, you know. I bet he needed to get home and cut his lawn before it rained.

[Dukat]

It is ASA. My point is if there is no force then how can I be against the delay of game rule by not running a girl that is not legally obligated to run? Once I got bases loaded after 2 more batters I ran her home as she was required to do.

Irish - There could be and was only one more run scored as once I ran the girl home when forced the game was called.

[Skahtboi]

Personally. I have no problem with Dukat's coaching tactics. I do, however, have a problem with the actions of this particular umpire.

[Dukat]

As an umpire I want to make sure I am following the rules and setting a good example even when I have my other shirt on. That is why I asked my UIC and brought it here to make sure my interpretation is correct. With that said, this umpire is the oldest in our organization and this is his last year and it seems to me that he does not want to be there anymore.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Dukat

It is ASA. My point is if there is no force then how can I be against the delay of game rule by not running a girl that is not legally obligated to run? Once I got bases loaded after 2 more batters I ran her home as she was required to do.

Irish - There could be and was only one more run scored as once I ran the girl home when forced the game was called.

Several points:

1) ASA does not allow restricting a coach to the dugout. Maybe your local league does.

2) I, also, have no problem in general with your coaching tactic in this situation. HOWEVER, since your admitted use of the tactic was to delay the completion of the game, it was illegal. As noted above, the rule against delaying the game does not state that the tactics must be in and of themselves illegal. Only that they be noticeably designed to delay the game. Normally, when I see coaches go to station-to-station running, it is to limit the scoring (limit the damage in a blowout), not to avoid hitting the mercy rule. They have long since hit the mercy rule in number of runs; they are just trying to get to through the innings required.

3) I think your desire to delay the game in order to give a couple of more kids some at-bats was a questionable motive.

[NCASAUmp]

I personally see absolutely no problem with what Dukat did. His game still had 30 minutes left, and there's nothing wrong with letting a 15U team get a couple extra at-bats. If a player gets injured, well... it's softball, a sport where injuries are to be expected.

With regards to the "employing tactics to noticeably delay the game," I can't justify holding a runner as being such a tactic, but that's my opinion. If there were two minutes left, then maybe. 30 minutes? Not a chance. Why am I in such a hurry to get the game over with?

[Dukat]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Several points:

1) ASA does not allow restricting a coach to the dugout. Maybe your local league does.

2) I, also, have no problem in general with your coaching tactic in this situation. HOWEVER, since your admitted use of the tactic was to delay the completion of the game, it was illegal. As noted above, the rule against delaying the game does not state that the tactics must be in and of themselves illegal. Only that they be noticeably designed to delay the game. Normally, when I see coaches go to station-to-station running, it is to limit the scoring (limit the damage in a blowout), not to avoid hitting the mercy rule. They have long since hit the mercy rule in number of runs; they are just trying to get to through the innings required.

3) I think your desire to delay the game in order to give a couple of more kids some at-bats was a questionable motive.

In point 1 - I agree, No it is not a local league thing either but it was a tactic that he used in order not to eject him and have to go through that process. The coach did not protest the move therefore it stood.

In points 2 and 3 - I see where you are coming from and understand but I think that it would be over officiating to apply it in this situation. In every game I try to avoid "running the score up" but on the same token try my best to give my girls as much of a chance to play as possible without making a travesty of the game. In my situation I can see where the rule could be applied but the same could be said about a girl who raises her foot an inch off the bag and getting called out for leaving the bag early. Technically illegal but would it be right to call it?

FYI..In the game where he restricted the coach to the bench the next day, it was a FP game and all he was doing was holding the girls to singles after reaching the mercy rule but not yet reaching the number of innings. (Up by 20+ in the 2nd)

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Dukat

Technically illegal but would it be right to call it?

No... I said it was illegal by your admission of why you were doing it, not that it should be called, or even any notice made of it in your situation.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Dukat

FYI..In the game where he restricted the coach to the bench the next day, it was a FP game and all he was doing was holding the girls to singles after reaching the mercy rule but not yet reaching the number of innings. (Up by 20+ in the 2nd)

Jeez... what a piece of work he must be.