Double swing

[SC Ump]

A local travel club is teaching its players to do a funky swing. On a drag bunt, the left handed batter swings early and allows her follow through to come around her back, with the bat switching behind her back from her right hand to her left hand and then tapping the ball for a bunt. This was done successfully on two occassions in an ASA tounament.

(POE 24 addresses this as illegal for ASA. I do not know if it is or is not legal in other organizations.)

My question is regarding if this is done on the third strike. My understanding of POE 24 is that if it is done (intentionally) with less than two stikes and batters on base, the batter is out and all runners return. If there are two strikes on the batter, would the batter be out on the third strike and then the runner closest to home also be out. It does not specifically state. It does reference a different rule, which I'm not sure if is the proper reference or a typo on the numbering.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

A local travel club is teaching its players to do a funky swing. On a drag bunt, the left handed batter swings early and allows her follow through to come around her back, with the bat switching behind her back from her right hand to her left hand and then tapping the ball for a bunt. This was done successfully on two occassions in an ASA tounament.

(POE 24 addresses this as illegal for ASA. I do not know if it is or is not legal in other organizations.)

My question is regarding if this is done on the third strike. My understanding of POE 24 is that if it is done (intentionally) with less than two stikes and batters on base, the batter is out and all runners return. If there are two strikes on the batter, would the batter be out on the third strike and then the runner closest to home also be out. It does not specifically state. It does reference a different rule, which I'm not sure if is the proper reference or a typo on the numbering.

No, this is not what RS 24 is addressing. This addresses the batter attempting to hit a pitch and accidentally hitting the ball on the backswing.

What you described (and I swear we cover this ad nauseum just recently) is designed to strike the ball on the wrap-around of the bat. The batter is not attempting to strike at the pitch on the initial action.

It is designed to throw off the infielder's timing be getting them to relax after the initial movement of the bat. What you defined is a head game and nothing more.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, this is not what RS 24 is addressing. This addresses the batter attempting to hit a pitch and accidentally hitting the ball on the backswing.

RS 24-C.2: If a batter swings at and misses the pitched ball, but intentionally hits it on the second swing, the ball is dead, and all runners must return to the base they occupied prior to the pitch.

Does that not directly address the action in the OP?

WMB

[mick]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

RS 24-C.2: If a batter swings at and misses the pitched ball, but intentionally hits it on the second swing, the ball is dead, and all runners must return to the base they occupied prior to the pitch.

Does that not directly address the action in the OP?

WMB

Mike's point was that the batter did not swing at the pitched ball.
That sounds right to me.

[wadeintothem]

I gotta stand by ole WMB on this one..

This does not seem to me to be a grey area in the rules.. and in fact is exactly the type of batting ASA has ruled against.

If that pitcher throws and you swing.. thats a swing and attempt to hit the ball for rules purposes. I dont care that the swing was not made to actually hit the ball.

All kinds of swings are made without intent to actually hit the ball.. late swings to protect runners, swings at pitches in the dirt to try to advance on D3K, etc .. and this double swing.

This is a swing.

RS24 applies.

[mick]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I gotta stand by ole WMB on this one..

This does not seem to me to be a grey area in the rules.. and in fact is exactly the type of batting ASA has ruled against.

If that pitcher throws and you swing.. thats a swing and attempt to hit the ball for rules purposes. I dont care that the swing was not made to actually hit the ball.

All kinds of swings are made without intent to actually hit the ball.. late swings to protect runners, swings at pitches in the dirt to try to advance on D3K, etc .. and this double swing.

This is a swing.

RS24 applies.

For discussion purposes, WMB asks if RS 24 applies.
You state RS 24 applies as fact.
Do you know something that WMB does not?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I gotta stand by ole WMB on this one..

This does not seem to me to be a grey area in the rules.. and in fact is exactly the type of batting ASA has ruled against.

If that pitcher throws and you swing.. thats a swing and attempt to hit the ball for rules purposes. I dont care that the swing was not made to actually hit the ball.

All kinds of swings are made without intent to actually hit the ball.. late swings to protect runners, swings at pitches in the dirt to try to advance on D3K, etc .. and this double swing.

This is a swing.

RS24 applies.

So if a batter twirls a bat while the pitcher is releasing the ball, that is a swing and you are going to call a strike on a pitch that is outside the zone for that reason?

Good luck, please stay away from my tournaments.

BTW, I have seen nothing from ASA on this issue in the five years that I have been aware of this "California Drag Bunt" has been seen on the field.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by mick

For discussion purposes, WMB asks if RS 24 applies.
You state RS 24 applies as fact.
Do you know something that WMB does not?

Actually, i took it as rhetorical, but could be wrong.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

So if a batter twirls a bat while the pitcher is releasing the ball, that is a swing and you are going to call a strike on a pitch that is outside the zone for that reason?

If she swings.. its a swing.. doesnt sound like you described a swing.

Good luck, please stay away from my tournaments.

All right, but when 1 of your 5 umpires quits, dont come sniveling to me. I was looking forward to my trip to miserable delaware too!

BTW, I have seen nothing from ASA on this issue in the five years that I have been aware of this "California Drag Bunt" has been seen on the field.

Maybe they are letting you squirm based on obvious existing rule without going out on a limb and actually taking a stand.. similar to gorilla grip.

It seems pretty clear to me though.

Maybe I'd have to see it... dont see this california drag bunt in CA .. at least I havent.

[IamMatt]

I know a baton twirler who would probably be pretty good at that...I've seen one-handed drag bunts but not the behind-the-back switch-the-bat bunt.

[bkbjones]

It's not a swing.

There. Yelling it makes me feel better. Mike is right...we did discuss this ad nauseum, and I'm about to be nauseum again. If that means I have to go to Delaware, then so be it.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

It's not a swing.

There. Yelling it makes me feel better. Mike is right...we did discuss this ad nauseum, and I'm about to be nauseum again. If that means I have to go to Delaware, then so be it.

No way ya vulture.

I'm gonna google it up this weekend and maybe see if I can take a looksee at it.. maybe I'll change my mind, especially with mike playing hardball with his umpire slots.

I've had my heart set on Delaware since I found out it never gets above 12F and only stops snowing enough to rain. Plus I really enjoy contaminated water and 5 legged dogs.

[mcrowder]

Not a swing. Actions in OP are legal. Why is this coming up again - didn't we resolve this recently?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

No way ya vulture.

I'm gonna google it up this weekend and maybe see if I can take a looksee at it.. maybe I'll change my mind, especially with mike playing hardball with his umpire slots.

I've had my heart set on Delaware since I found out it never gets above 12F and only stops snowing enough to rain. Plus I really enjoy contaminated water and 5 legged dogs.

And this from someone who lives in a state where people build houses on cliffs and hillsides only to have them slide into the ocean or valley after a good rain and then are dumb enough to rebuild on the same site. A state which does not allow people to enter forests to clear naturally downed timber and then cannot figure out what stokes the horrendous fires which kill people and causes billions of dollars in lost property. A state which will not permit the building of power plants and then cannot figure out why there is an energy issue.

Back to point, check out page 221 of ASA Umpire Manual. Under the "check swing" is the closest thing I can find to define what ASA believes to be a swing. #2 states "swinging through the ball and bringing or drawing the bat back, unless drawing it back before the pitch gets to the bat.

I read this as saying that it IS a swing, but only if the ball was actually there for the bat to strike.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I read this as saying that it IS a swing, but only if the ball was actually there for the bat to strike.

Come on, Mr. ASA - you are denying what your own people have written. Someone somewhere in ASA heirarchy deliberately wrote that it is illegal to hit the ball on a second swing. There has to be a reason (does there really?) for ASA to write that statement.

On a 60 mph pitch that reaches the plate in less than a half second, there is no way in hell that a batter can wait until "the ball was actually there for the bat to strike" and swing twice and actually hit the ball. Obviously, the swing has to start early so as to get the bat around a second time. Fact is, the bat swing has to start before the pitch is even released.

And if the batter is really good enough to hit the ball on the second swing, ASA says that is illegal - strike on the batter and return base runners.

WBM

[Dakota]

Second "swing".... not second time the bat is moved. There is no requirement for the bat to remain stationary before the first swing.